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To: Logain Ablar who wrote (44000)	11/3/2005 11:44:30 AM
From: Lizzie Tudor	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

You can't even imagine the sacrifices they make for you, me, the rest of America Actually that isn't true. An entire half of my extended family died fighting in WWII, and then my grandmother fell into a state of dementia (or insanity- whatever you want to call it) in dealing with the trauma, which ultimately resulted in her diagnosis and treatment with shock therapy and what we (in the family) think might have been a labotomy in the 50s. This was all a direct result of sacrifices my family members made, for a just and worthwhile war in the 40s. Fighting and dying, and killing others to make a worldwide situation worse (much worse) just because some inept leader said to do so is not an act of heroism. Now I realize a lot of people have no choice, due to their economic situation or due to a draft in the case of vietnam. And those folks should never feel that their sacrifices were in any way wrong, but is it heroism to execute a war and voilate the 50-year old Geneva accords because Rumsfeld says so? Not in my mind, I know whats right and wrong do those following Rumsfeld's "lead" know that? I know what I thought about the role those soldiers had at the Abu Grabe (sp?) prison and it SURE wasn't heroism. And those that call it that are part of the problem. PS I always wondered what connections that "private Ryan" family had to the government. One branch of my family lost a mother (nurse), 2 sons and a daughter in WWII, leaving only the father and a 4 year old, and then another side which is where my Grandmother was lost ALL adult age children. There was a ton of that in WWII, whole families wiped out especially the sailors fighting the Japanese, and for some reason the saving private Ryan situation was singled out... I don't know why (not saying there was anything wrong with Saving Pvt Ryan, just wondering why that family and not ours)

To: Logain Ablar who wrote (44000)	11/3/2005 11:54:05 AM
From: Joe S Pack	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

The thing is, I don't have much sympathy for supporters of the war now. Anybody who lets their kid fight there is a fool. There is no sense acting like it is a noble cause, it is not. Completely agree and is 100% true. Only fools, crooks and stupid serve in army to embelish their pockets at the expense of tax payers. In almost all wasr conducted by US only a handful had any real reason for protecting US. the rest are all hoodwinked ones. The rest below is total nonsense and brainwashed garbage. Whether it is a noble cause is an opinion and your entitled to yours but disparging / insulting our military and their families is way out of line. You can't even imagine the sacrifices they make for you, me, the rest of America and a good portion of the world. This didn't start with President Bush and it won't end with him either. You think the women were better off under Sadamn. Tell that to all the women raped by the bathists. Tell that to the women raped by his son's. Tell that to the women who were gassed along with their children. Tell that to the Israeli women who's sons and daughters were killed by extemists who Sadamn then paid $25,000 to the extremist cause. You don't think the Muslim extremists want to kill Jews and Christians (your a Christian in their book by the way) then don't read the LA Times and read what has been happening in the middle east for the past 25 years. It started before Carter and continues today.

To: Logain Ablar who wrote (44000)	11/3/2005 12:17:35 PM
From: mishedlo	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

Whether it is a noble cause is an opinion and your entitled to yours but disparging / insulting our military and their families is way out of line. You can't even imagine the sacrifices they make for you, me, the rest of America and a good portion of the world. This didn't start with President Bush and it won't end with him either. You think the women were better off under Sadamn. Tell that to all the women raped by the bathists. Tell that to the women raped by his son's. Tell that to the women who were gassed along with their children. Tell that to the Israeli women who's sons and daughters were killed by extemists who Sadamn then paid $25,000 to the extremist cause. Who is disparaging the military, and what military is being disparaged. I would surely not disparage the average GI but I sure would attack Rumsfeld, wolfwitz, and Powell, the latter largely because he did not do what I believe he knows he should have done: criticize the preside and resign or be fired. I surely will also criticize any military that thinks we are on some kind of "noble mission". If that is disparaging then so be it. I think the vast majority of them just want to do their time and get the H out of there. Note that even the US military top brass has now stated that Us soldiers are part of the problem! Finally an admission of truth. US soldiers are part of the problem in that they are where they should not be and don't want to be and are not doing any good either. That is a simple statement of fact and not disparagement. There are some that deserve being disparaged and those are the clowns that tortured folks in prison and set bodies on fire. More importantly it is the higher up leaders that allowed and even condoned such disgusting actions. Note too they commander in chief refuses to abide by the Geneva conventions and refuses to act on torture. The US senate is even disgusted with this and has put in provisions on torture the president said he would veto. As for sacrifices they are making for me... Get a grip. They are not making any sacrifices for me and I do not want their sacrifices either. I would rather they all be alive. The 2035 that are dead died in vain. For nothing. For no reason, on a lie by President Bush. Our nation did not gain for this. Our nation LOST for this. I would just assume every soldier in Iraq right now, put down their weapons and simply refuse to fight. Let's see every one of them put in jail. It would not happen. This war will continue as long as public support for it does. I am glad to see public support for this mess waning rapidly. More and more people want to see Bush impeached if he lied. More and more people think Bush lied. Of course bush lied. That is the bottom line and there is no way to duck around it. As for You think the women were better off under Sadamn. Tell that to all the women raped by the bathists. Tell that to the women raped by his son's. Tell that to the women who were gassed along with their children. Tell that to the Israeli women who's sons and daughters were killed by extemists who Sadamn then paid $25,000 to the extremist cause. Please get a grip. For starters our own CIA has proven the gas that killed those kurds was IRANIAN in nature not Iraqi. You keep perpetuating blatant lies. The most likely scenario is a gas war between Iran and Iraq and those Kurds were "collaterial damage". But.... the collateral damage was a result of Iranian gas. We know that from the type of symptoms they had and those symptoms are associated with the gas Iran had not the Gas we gave Hussein. I am sure you know we gave that gas to Hussein right? On stupid US policy of the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Why we even have pictures of Rumsfeld shaking hands with Hussein. Finally, there is no question that Iraqi women in general were better off under Hussein. So were Christians. Yes some people were tortured. But those were not women in general or Christians in general, they were political enemies of Hussein. Now we have Shiite thug groups going around killing women that do not wear veils. We have assasins targeting Christians just becasue they are Christians. On the whole it is impossible to deny that women and Christians were better off under Hussein. When we leave this mess, Iraq will most likely break out into total civil war or become a looney bin of Religious law like Iran. We will have caused it too. The Iraq war is a total failure. To deny it is insane. Every soldier going over there is risking their lives on a stupid suicide mission that never should have been undertaken. Those that think they are on a mission from god are just plain stupid. If that is disparaging then they deserve to be disparaged. Those are the bottom lines and you cant see it because you want to believe in the nutcase that started this mess and you want to believe that your friends or family or whoever is doing the "right thing". One can admire their patriotism and courage but there is certainly nothing else to be admired here. From top to bottom this war and everyone behind it calling the shots are a bunch of liars at best and guilty of treason and murder at worst. Mish

To: Logain Ablar who wrote (44000)	11/3/2005 2:05:40 PM
From: Amy J	Respond to of 306849

RE: "You think the women were better off under Sadamn. " Do you even know of any female Iraqis living in Iraq right now, or are you spouting off things you don't know? Clearly, it's the case of the later. You truly sound globally unconnected - Iraqi women have not been able to leave their homes for 4 years due to the violence since the USA military entered Iraq. It's a prison for them. Saddam was one of the more liberal-minded Muslim leaders in the Middle East. Prior to the USA invasion which essentially imprisoned Iraqi women into their own homes, there were Iraqi female lawyers, doctors, etc. and the ethnicity acceptance was higher than neighboring countries where people of many different religions - including Christians - were working in Iraq's government prior to his removal. Meanwhile, you've got some businessmen from countries like Saudia Arabia still saying "Dear Sir" in business correspondence, and more than half a dozen of the terrorists came from Saudia Arabia.

To: Logain Ablar who wrote (44000)	11/5/2005 10:23:14 AM
From: David Howe	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

<<< You think the women were better off under Sadamn. Tell that to all the women raped by the bathists. Tell that to the women raped by his son's. Tell that to the women who were gassed along with their children. Tell that to the Israeli women who's sons and daughters were killed by extemists who Sadamn then paid $25,000 to the extremist cause. >>> For some reason the left can't seem to acknowledge these simple facts. They also can't acknowledge who we are fighting. Maybe they should watch the videos of these madmen sawing off the heads of children just because they are Christian. The left just doesn't understand how evil these fundamentalist terrorists are.