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Politics : View from the Center and Left -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Lane3 who wrote (5380)	11/16/2005 10:55:01 AM
From: Mary Cluney	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 543144

I don't see how you get "openly practicing torture" out of that piece. In it, torture is rare and punished. By the time you see roaches openly going through your kitchen, chances are there are many more that you don't see. We have seen pictures from Abu Ghraib, we have reports from Dana Priest about secret prisons outside of the United States, we have pictures of the 173 detainees discovered over the weekend in the basement of an Interior Ministry building in a Baghdad suburb, we have on going investigations of detainees dying during interrogation, and this is just from me reading headlines in newspapers. Nevertheless, I agree, that it is not all that common. But when you put that together with the Vice President seeking to bypass US prohibition against torture and pretty obviously seek the use of torture off the books (off site so to speak) - that opens up cans of worms. If the Vice President is looking to bypass laws (even if for alleged high minded purposes) just think of all those lower down in the food chain looking to by pass prohibitions against torture who may not be so high minded. This is a mess.

To: Lane3 who wrote (5380)	11/16/2005 11:03:15 AM
From: Dale Baker	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 543144

As Mary pointed out so well, the idea that torture can be neat, discreet and properly atoned for is a myth in the realm of international public perception. Even suggesting that policy would be viewed by the average newspaper reader around the world as mildly nuts. And that's the vote that counts in the long run when we try to build international support. A derivative negative trend the last four years has been this belief that if we simply rationalize our actions to our own satisfaction, it will play positively around the world. It doesn't. It's that simple.