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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bilow who wrote (178616)	12/22/2005 5:35:54 PM
From: Sam	Respond to of 281500

The basic problem is that the Iraq that we are creating will either be broken by civil war with the result that it continues to be a training ground for terrorists, or alternatively, it will be a country that is united against us and no longer afraid of the US military No one can put any more succinctly and directly than that. After we leave, the political will for us to return will be zero, just as current US polls show that the American people now believe that entering the war was a mistake. Everyone will know this just as they know now that the political will for the US to punish Iran or N. Korea for nuclear weapons production is zero. The new Iraq government will feel itself quite unafraid of the US returning much as the Vietnam government after 1975 was not in the least afraid of the US. The difference is that the post US Iraq will be a hell of a lot more dangerous than the post US Vietnam ever was or that...

To: Bilow who wrote (178616)	12/22/2005 9:31:30 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

I agree, and I think that this is a good thing. But it wouldn't be happening were the US acting as a "colonial occupier", now would it? There certainly would not have been elections. The basic problem is that the Iraq that we are creating will either be broken by civil war with the result that it continues to be a training ground for terrorists, or alternatively, it will be a country that is united against us and no longer afraid of the US military. So let me understand this.. What you're saying is that Iraq, under Saddam's brutal Ba'thist regime was NOT BROKEN, nor was it "united" against us??? Come one now... The Iraqi people have some major cultural "ISSUES" to deal with. Face it.. They have NEVER been a nation of individuals who hold the same values and ideals. The country was arbitrarily carved out of the Ottoman Empire and placed under a foreign King (Faysal Hussein) for decades. So they are really have to come to some terms about how to share power, wealth, and resources in this country. It may really be necessary for them to enact something similar to what Colombia did during their period of "La Violencia" where opposing political factions took turns each year running the government. Pretty inefficient, but it helped to create some trust and cooperation amongst ideologically contrary power elites. As to your claims that the US military is all happy about being in Iraq, I think you're full of crap. Well, let's see.. I've been over here for 1 1/2 years living this, while you've been watching it on the Communist News Network.. So you tell me who's more credible?? And btw, I don't think I ever said "all". But I feel safe in saying that a large majority understand why we're here.. No doubt they'd all rather be at home. But not at the cost of just dropping everything and letting this country lapse into a bloody civil war.. Hawk

To: Bilow who wrote (178616)	12/24/2005 12:59:12 PM
From: Sam	Respond to of 281500

Looks to me more and more like some sort of civil war will be the result. Shiites Reject Calls for New Iraqi Ballot By MARIAM FAM, Associated Press Writer Sat Dec 24, 8:42 AM ET Iraq's leading Shiite religious bloc on Saturday condemned protests by Sunni Arab and secular groups claiming that parliamentary elections were fraudulent, and it rejected calls for a new ballot. Officials with the Shiite United Iraqi Alliance said preliminary results showing them with a clear lead in the Dec. 15 elections reflected the will of the people. They countered claims of irregularities by charging that many violations took place in Sunni Arab areas. They added, however, that they had begun talks with other groups about the possibility of forming a "national unity government." At least one Sunni Arab leader said he was upset by the Shiite comments. Meanwhile, at least eight people were killed by gunmen around Baghdad. Gunmen on Friday also tried to assassinate a judge on the Supreme Iraqi Criminal Court that is investigating Saddam Hussein and members of his regime, a court spokesman said Saturday. The disagreements between the various sectarian and political groups that participated in the elections illustrate the difficulties that lie ahead as Iraq tries to forge its first four-year government following the fall of Saddam. "There is no doubt that these elections were impartial and reflected the will of the Iraqi people and that their results must be respected," said Hussain al-Shahristani, a senior Alliance official and deputy speaker in the current parliament. The comments came one day after thousands of people demonstrated in Baghdad and elsewhere claiming election fraud. They demanded that elections be held again in Baghdad and other areas where they allege irregularities took place. "The door is open for dialogue with our brothers and partners because we believe that Iraq cannot stand up without its main components. Dialogue has already started away from these voices that we hear on the streets," said another senior Alliance official, Jawad al-Maliki. "Dialogue has started between us and between the slates that won in the elections. Our goal is to form a broad-based national unity government." But he also said that "some of those who have been shocked by their defeat and by the great results realized by the winning slates insist on making trouble." He added that "the results must be accepted and the will of the people must be respected." Al-Maliki then upped the rhetoric and claimed the street protests were led by former members of Saddam's Baath party and Islamic extremists, and he described reports that militants helped guard some polling stations in Sunni areas as proof of fraud. "They have stated that what they call 'resistance' has protected the ballot boxes in their areas. This is a confession that rigging has happened. The terrorists cannot play a positive role while they're shedding the blood of Iraqis and rejecting the political process," he said. Sunni Arab politician Saleh al-Mutlaq said the Shiites "should not accuse us of terrorism. It is not fair that each protester be considered as a terrorist, and anyone who supports the legitimate resistance will be considered a terrorist." "I heard what they said on television and I feel regret, this is an evidence that we are still behind civilized nations," he told pan-Arab al-Arabyia television. Many people outside the governing Shiite religious-oriented political bloc, the United Iraqi Alliance, allege the last week's elections were unfair to Sunni Arabs and secular Shiite groups. Sunni Arab and secular Shiite factions are demanding that an international body review the fraud complaints, warning that they may boycott the new legislature. The United Nations has rejected an outside review. The demand was issued after preliminary returns indicated the United Iraqi Alliance was getting a commanding lead in the polls. About 1,500 complaints have been lodged about the elections, including at least 25 the Iraqi election commission said could be serious enough to change the results in certain areas. The protesting groups have demanded the disbandment of the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq, accusing it of covering up ballot box stuffing and fraud. Washington hopes broader political participation will weaken support among Sunni Arabs for the Sunni-dominated insurgency, which would strengthen security and allow U.S. troops to begin leaving. Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said President Bush had authorized new cuts below the 138,000-soldier level that has prevailed for most of this year. The top military commander in Iraq and the U.S. ambassador have said the reduction would involve two combat brigades, or about 7,000 soldiers. In violence Saturday: • Two security guards for Iraq's justice minister were killed in Baghdad's southern Dora neighborhood when gunmen opened fire on a three-cars convoy. • Unidentified gunmen fired on two police officers in civilian clothes as they were driving through southwest Baghdad. One was killed the other wounded, police said. • Police found the bullet-riddled bodies of three men in eastern Baghdad. • Police said unidentified gunmen opened fire on a bakery in Baghdad's southern Saydiya district, killing an employee. • Unidentified gunmen killed two brothers who owned an appliance store in Baghdad's Mansour district. news.yahoo.com.