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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (181015)	2/1/2006 6:47:44 PM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "Hell, the unemployment rate of Saudi Arabia is around 30% (though no one really knows except the SA govt)!" The CIA gives an unemployment rate for SA of 13% and says that other estimates go as high as 25%: www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sa.html But SA is an unfair example in that the government subsidizes so much stuff for the citizens. The unemployment rate does not accurately describe the level of economic pain that is suffered by the unemployed. On the other hand, you might take notice of the fact that there are plenty of volunteers for Al Qaeda coming out of SA. Re: "I have a friend who was working in Kenya.. they have 60% unemployment there!" What's your point? That Kenya would provide an even better place to hire people for the Iraqi army? I'd rather be unemployed in Kenya than Iraq any day. But history shows that the best places to hire mercenaries are places with crappy economies. What do you think Switzerland was like back when the Vatican started hiring them. And how do you think all those Hessians ended up in the British army. Re: "And I think it would be fair to say that in the majority of Arab countries the unemployment rater is at least 15-20%. But are they lining up to join THEIR militaries?" You'll have to take a look at them on a case by case basis. The most recent data I could quickly find on the net is from around 1990. At that time, Saudi Arabia, for example, had problems attracting specialists, but for grunts used SA volunteers: "Nevertheless, in June 1991, the minister of defense and aviation declared that no conscription was needed because the rush of volunteers sometimes exceeded the capacity of training centers to absorb them." www.photius.com/countries/saudi_arabia So yes, people in Saudi Arabia do "line up" to join their military. I didn't find data on Kenya, but I doubt that it has much of a military. South Africa, according to the above link, was relying on a volunteer force. Most Arab countries use a draft and pay poorly, as of the above time frame and I doubt it's changed much since then. Kuwait had a draft as of 1993, but had liberal deferments. We all know who ends up in the military with those kind of rules. But Kuwait is a rich country. A better example would be Egypt, where draftees were paid less than $10 per month, while NCOs had "reasonable" pay. Of course the economy in Iraq is far worse than in any of the other Arab countries, so the situations are not very comparable. Re: "You should more fair, and less denigrating as to the reasons they join the military. Because under Saddam, the Iraqi army was upwards of 400,000 men." Yes, I would think that there would be a lot of men available in Iraq who considered the military their home. But now you're arguing my side on this issue, not yours. Re: "And you think that death toll will decrease if the US "bugs out" and leaves the various factions to raise the violence to full-fledged civil war? What makes you believe FEWER people are going to die in such an event?" I expect the death toll to increase after we leave, until the locals sort things out. But I see no reason to expect that death toll to be less if we leave in 2017 than if we leave in 2007. In the meantime, OUR death toll would definitely be decreased if we leave soon. Re: "And are you willing to bear the responsibility for being the person who unleashed that massive killing? Yes. I believe you are." Sure. As it is, I have little effect on US foreign policy. People other than me decided to start a war that I repeatedly said we could not win. People other than me will decide to cut our losses. But sure, if you're willing to give me the button that pulls us out of Iraq, I'm pushing it. Re: "Just make sure you put it in writing ..." Done. Now why don't you put in writing how many US troops you are willing to have die in Iraq before you will give up on your fantasy. Put it in writing. Re: "... so we can hold you to the same accountability that you hold the administration to." I have no authority so you can't hold me accountable. All I'm doing is telling it like I see it. -- Carl