"Whether or not marijuana laws are a good idea is irrelevant to the discussion"
Which repeats my point.
"They just provide a good example of how someone can break the law without attacking (or defrauding) anyone else"
Whether the law is just or unjust is not an argument I feel like embracing at this time. All laws purport to be about protecting rights. There are many who believe that marijuana laws and certain laws against prostitution are unjustified on that basis.
"I haven't introduced the topic of "the Constitutional legitimacy of certain (victimless crime) laws"."
Laws are made to protect Constitutional Rights and Freedoms. It doesn't matter whether or not you are aware of that fact. I am still permitted to point out that it affects the argument.
"Even if such laws were assumed to be constitutional and beneficial enforcing them would not be self-defense, or defense of others"
First of all: it is irrelevant whether or not they are Constitutional. I told you I was not arguing the points of disagreement on which laws are Constitutionally lawful or not. You are part of a representative democracy. There is a process for you to argue your laws.
As to defending others...that is PRECISELY what enforcing the law does: more accurately the RIGHTS and FREEDOMS of others. Again, I am discussing the principle with you. I am not arguing the merits of specific laws which may or may not be justified by this principle. Telling me that you, Tim Fowler, think that society has enacted bad laws (through either ignorance or malice) is irrelevant to my argument and irrelevant to my interest. There is no absolutely correct law. All laws must rely on the judgement of people in various circumstances and involving myriad factors. So I do not at this time intend to argue which laws ought to be changed because I or you or someone else has the notion that they are not adequately justified by the principle that rights and freedoms are at issue.
I do not know if you respect the opinion of the United States State Department. But I will pass on their opinion, in any case.
usinfo.state.gov
"The U.S. legal system rests upon the principle that the fundamental purpose of government is to protect the inherent rights and freedoms that belong to all people, and to ensure equal treatment for all.
In the United States, these rights and freedoms are embodied most explicitly in the first 10 amendments to the Constitution, known as the Bill of Rights, ratified in 1791, and in the "equal protection" clause of the 14th Amendment, ratified in 1868, after the Civil War. Over its history, a great body of statutory law, court decisions, and regulatory procedures have evolved and elaborated the freedoms and rights set out in the Bill of Rights and other provisions of the Constitution.
The First Amendment protects freedom of speech and religious worship. It also protects the right of people to organize and protest peacefully for political or social change.
Freedom of speech and of the press is a cornerstone of any democracy. For that reason, the First Amendment prohibits the government from attempting to control or monitor the content of public statements or reports in the press — resting on the conviction that, in the end, open debate will leader to greater truth and wiser public decisions. Only in rare and very limited situations can written or spoken speech be limited or punished.
Religious freedom means that the state cannot sponsor, support, or discourage religious expression by any group or individual. Religion remains a prominent feature of life in the United States, but courts have held that the First Amendment means that a "wall" must separate religion and the government.
The Second Amendment, which protects the right to bear arms because a "well regulated militia" is necessary for the security of the state, remains controversial. Some believe that it means that an individual's right to bear arms is protected by the Constitution; others assert that it only gives each state the right to maintain its own "militia," known today as the National Guard. The Supreme Court has not provided any definitive pronouncement on the interpretation of the Second Amendment.
Americans are protected against unreasonable searches and seizure of their property and person. For example, an individual cannot be arrested merely on the suspicion of the police. Moreover, evidence seized during an illegal search, or evidence derived there from, cannot be used as evidence in a trial.
In modern times, with changes in technology and culture, this protection has been expanded into a broader constitutional right of privacy — an example of extrapolating an implied right from the express words of the Constitution itself.
Several amendments protect persons accused of crimes, designed to ensure, broadly speaking, "due process of law." The accused have a right to a speedy and public trial in which they are judged by a jury of their peers, and in which they have the opportunity to confront their accusers. They cannot be forced to incriminate themselves by testifying at trial. The Eighth Amendment also explicitly outlaws "cruel and unusual punishment." Criminal suspects are entitled to legal counsel, which is reflected in the well-known Miranda warnings that the police give persons under arrest, restating basic rights against self-incrimination ("You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in court of law") and due process of law ("You have the right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you").
The accused cannot be tried for the same crime twice (double jeopardy), and cannot be tried for actions that were not crimes at the time they were committed (ex post facto laws).
The Constitution protects property rights as well. For example, government at any level must meet stringent legal requirements, and pay just compensation, before it can take anyone's private property, and it may take private property only for “public use,” not private purposes.
The 14th Amendment's guarantee of "equal protection of the laws" has served as a legal foundation for the social and political movements of the 20th century to secure equal rights for women and for African Americans and other minority groups.
Other amendments, including the 15th (voting rights regardless of race), 19th (women's right to vote), 24th (abolition of poll, or election, taxes), and 26th (lowering voting age to 18) reflect the struggle to ensure the constitutional right to vote and participate in the political process for all citizens.
The rights embodied in the Constitution do not exist in isolation or in the abstract. They require recognition and active support by all Americans, regardless of political views or position in society. Some obligations, notably serving on juries, can be required by law. Most forms of participation in the life of the community and nation, such as voting, are voluntary, yet critical to the healthy functioning of American democracy and protection of the rights and freedoms of the people."
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The European Convention on Human Rights points out how the "liberty and security of person" relates to lawful and measured procedures in regard to exceptions. The United States principle preceeds that convention and embodies the same principle.
hri.org
ARTICLE 5
"Everyone has the right to liberty and security of person.
No one shall be deprived of his liberty save in the following cases and in accordance with a procedure prescribed by law:
(a) the lawful detention of a person after conviction by a competent court;
(b) the lawful arrest or detention of a person for non-compliance with the lawful order of a court or in order to secure the fulfilment of any obligation prescribed by law;
(c) the lawful arrest or detention of a person effected for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority of reasonable suspicion of having committed and offence or when it is reasonably considered necessary to prevent his committing an offence or fleeing after having done so;
(d) the detention of a minor by lawful order for the purpose of educational supervision or his lawful detention for the purpose of bringing him before the competent legal authority;
(e) the lawful detention of persons for the prevention of the spreading of infectious diseases, of persons of unsound mind, alcoholics or drug addicts, or vagrants;
(f) the lawful arrest or detention of a person to prevent his effecting an unauthorized entry into the country or of a person against whom action is being taken with a view to deportation or extradition."
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