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To: Crabbe who wrote (4701)	3/7/2006 9:01:16 AM
From: Moominoid	Respond to of 219195

Energy return on investment needs to include the full fuel production cycle. For gasoline you must be looking at just oil refining or something, but even then your figure looks very low. Ethanol, biodiesel etc. IMO have a role to play if either they are made from wastes or for ethanol as an additive to improve the quality of gasoline etc. As a primary fuel none of the evidence I have seen suggests they would be a good idea. I don't know enough though about this switchgrass thing. Charlie Hall who claims to have invented the term "EROI" came to speak here at my university on my invitation recently. He slammed all of these alternatives... He was the undergrad adviser of my PhD adviser so he is one of my academic "grandfathers" :)

To: Crabbe who wrote (4701)	3/7/2006 11:12:03 AM
From: gg cox	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 219195

""Contrast that to gasoline with an EROEI of .73-1"" Are you saying that 1 barrel in to get 30 barrels of Saudi crude out, EROI 30 for example, will, after transportation and refining, only give an EROI for gasoline of less than one?Sounds reasonable for tar sands oil, but not for Saudi oil IMO. Where did you get that from??From here? transportation.anl.gov Truth is always enshrouded with fog. Ask these guys about the value of a gallon of gasoline or ethanol for that matter, after the push ...i am sure they would chose gasoline because of the higher BTU output per gallon. santacruzsentinel.com See page 2 e85fuel.com

To: Crabbe who wrote (4701)	3/8/2006 8:22:38 AM
From: Elroy Jetson	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 219195

The EROEI of Crude Oil is roughly 30 to 1. It costs one BTU to find and pump 30 BTU of crude oil. In decades past it was around 100 to 1. Crude Oil makes up 60% of the pre-tax cost of gasoline, with refining 18% and distribution and profit 22%. Let's assume that all of the costs of Refining, Distribution and Profit are energy costs (which they're not). This would indicate that 60% of Crude Oil's EROI gets through, or an EROEI of 18 to 1. Actually I think it would very ambitious to assume energy expenditures make up even 33% of non-oil gasoline costs. This would indicate an EROEI of 20 to 1 for gasoline. Just think how silly it is to assume the EROEI of gasoline is only 0.74 to 1. This means that we spend one BTU to obtain only 0.74 BTU of gasoline! Spending a Dollar to get 74 cents? This would be an enormously unprofitable business! This figure is quite obviously wrong. Just nonsense. Now, if we calculate how much energy from the sun was allegedly required to make the plants to make the crude oil, then perhaps you end up with and EROEI of only 0.74 to 1. But how relevant is this figure until oil is fully depleted? When oil is gone, they you would truly be comparing growing plants to bury deep in the Earth to make oil versus some other energy source. .