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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (183814)	3/20/2006 6:27:13 PM
From: michael97123	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

"I shiver at the thought of all the American soldiers who sacrificed their lives because our politicians and military leaders didn't have the good common sense to formulate US policy to fit the reality, not their own naive sense of international decorum." OR if not deemed winnable at an acceptable cost in both men and treasure, not to have not gotten involved at all. I agree NV and VC sucked. I agree that SVN offered a better deal than communism did but i question how manageable your expansion of the war would have been, particularly to our relations with russia and china. Just as in iraq, i question whether some things are possible or not. I think vietnam wasnt even if we expanded the war per your suggestions but in iraq it may have been if we had run it right from the getgo. Time is running out there.

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (183814)	3/21/2006 2:30:41 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hawk, your post never rebutted a single point I made in my post. You simply raised new issues. The method of debate that goes, "So what, then how about ..." is not indicative of high intellect and is usually a waste of time. When it comes to distorting the record on Vietnam, however, I'm not going to leave your naked assertions unanswered. Too many men died to have that history shanghaied by "SUPER PATRIOTS" like yourself who try to contort every fact in an effort to justify the latest meat grinder war. "Why don't you tell us all about the "free and fair" elections that the North Vietnamese carried out once they won their "civil war". Who cares? But, since you bring it up, let's talk about how the people of Vietnam are faring under their non-democratic form of government. In the years we were helping them several million of them DIED. The country was overwhelmed by foreign troops who could fire up their villages and shoot them in the night without fear of repercussions. People were dislocated, their rice fields were burned, their government was corrupt and they were second class citizens in their own country. So how are they doing now? Explain this: in the last decade many Vietnamese "refugees" from the US are returning to live in Vietnam under their current government. What does that tell you? They're leaving our country and going back to their own. And our airlines fly there now. They welcome us and we are their biggest trading partner. What an awful ISM they must be.... Grow up and face the facts. Many "ISMS" are not that bad. Government can create a horrible existence for their citizens, even democratic governments. Take a good look at some of the Central American govs or, if you'd like a closer look, take a glance at the democratic history of Haiti. It depends on the leaders of the governments, the culture of the nation and a host of other factors. I'd much prefer that Iraq be run by a King Abdullah than a leadership duly elected by the majority Shiites. So, with Vietnam, don't give me a litmus test where you're always right since "They don't have free elections." "Oh.. and I guess all of those NVA soldiers were thrilled to find out they were not fighting just for "national unity" but all for the purpose of installing a foreign derived political system." What are you talking about? They were fighting for nationalism. They didn't install a "foreign derived political system," they installed their own version of whatever they wanted. And they weren't the puppets of anyone as their skirmish with China clearly revealed. The fact that YOU don't like it doesn't mean spit to them. That's what being sovereign means. "Or could it be that the ARVN had the disadvantage because of having exterior lines as the NVA found their sanctuaries in Cambodia and Laos?? Wouldn't it have been so nice if the HCM trail could have been cut and the extended between Thailand and S. China Sea and defend a few hundred miles of border than over a thousand?" You're showing your ignorance again. WE CONTROLLED THE SKIES. That was a huge advantage. We sent in a HALF MILLION American troops to fight. And now you're saying the South Vietnamese somehow had the bad end of the stick because we didn't go into Laos and Cambodia more often? Get real. And it would have been different if They'd only had to "defend a few hundred miles of border?" It's that city boy, spot on the map thing again. Do you know how far a hundred miles is? Really is on foot and not from the window of a car traveling at 70MPH? Ever been in a jungle? Ever traveled on foot through a quarter million meters of jungle? I have and I'm telling you that you're a fool. Like all the others with their "we'd have won if we'd have.." bullshit, you're thinking in slogans and the real world doesn't give a shit about slogans. "Why not just say they were all NVA?" Because they weren't all NVA. The NVA were from the North. That's where their homes and families were. The VC were from the South. Both factions were, however, VIETNAMESE. Think about that. "Who are you kidding? The NVA built a friggin' petroleum pipeline and a highway by the 1970's. They actually managed to "trickle" T-55 tanks down to the south along this "cattle path" you're talking about." I was there, you idiot. You need to distinguish between the parts of the trail that ran through N. Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia and the parts of the trail that ran through S. Vietnam. Parts of the entire length of the trail were often bombed and shot up by gunships but it WASN'T one trail. It was a series of parallel and interlocking trails, many no more than a few inches wide. In many parts of the journey the material was downloaded and carried on the backs of men and women through the night and through the mud and wet of monsoon rains. The jungle was so thick that most of the trails were completely concealed from a view from the air. Your "spot on the map" mind can't begin to picture the reality of that war. "Was it that much of a stretch to face the reality that the NVA are violating Laotian neutrality, so it's imperative that we counter this, by counter-invasion, if necessary? YOU THINK WE SHOULD HAVE INVADED LAOS AND CAMBODIA? We got our asses handed to us in S. Vietnam but you think we'd have done better if we'd expanded the war to cover an exponentially greater area of jungle and a wider population of Asians? One thing is very clear to me...you have absolutely no clue about the realities of a war that cost the lives of 58,000 BRAVE AMERICAN SOLDIERS and millions of Vietnamese men, women and children. How much fucking blood would it take for you to get a clue and start dealing with reality instead of fantasy? I suspect that the answer is that there isn't enough of someone else's blood to get you there but if it was your blood it wouldn't take too much for you to begin to see things more clearly. That's a damn shame. Ed