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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: KLP who wrote (184166)3/27/2006 2:05:55 AM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
Dumbya has become a deer stuck in the headlights...
he will not change his policy because the idea utterly frightens him.

-s2@LookingForwardToANewPartyControllingCongressThisFall.com



To: KLP who wrote (184166)3/27/2006 2:12:54 AM
From: stockman_scott  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Impeachment idea sparks debate

By Michael Powell /
The Washington Post
Sunday, March 26, 2006

HOLYOKE, Mass. — To drive through New England's mill towns and curling country roads is to journey into its impeachment belt. Three of this state's 10 House members have called for the investigation and possible impeachment of President Bush.

Thirty miles north, residents in four Vermont villages voted this month at annual town meetings to buy more rock salt, approve school budgets and impeach the president for lying about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction and for sanctioning torture.

Window cleaner Ira Clemons stroked his goatee as he considered the question: Would you support your congressman's call to impeach Bush? His smile grew until it looked like a three-quarters moon.

"Why not? The man's been lying from Jump Street on the war in Iraq," Clemons said. "Bush says there were weapons of mass destruction, but there wasn't. Says we had enough soldiers, but we didn't. Says it's not a civil war — but it is.

"I was really upset about 9/11; so don't lie to me."

It would be a considerable overstatement to say the fledgling impeachment movement threatens to topple a presidency; there are only 33 House co-sponsors of a motion by Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., to investigate and perhaps impeach Bush, and a large majority of elected Democrats think it is a bad idea.

Web sites lead the way

But talk bubbles up in many parts of the nation, and on the Internet, where several Web sites have led the charge.

"The value of a powerful idea, like impeachment of the president for criminal acts, is that it has a long shelf life and opens a debate," said Bill Goodman of the Center for Constitutional Rights, which represents Guantánamo Bay detainees.

The San Francisco Board of Supervisors voted last month to urge Congress to impeach Bush, as have state Democratic parties, including those of New Mexico, Nevada, North Carolina and Wisconsin.

A Zogby International poll showed that 51 percent of respondents agreed that Bush should be impeached if he lied about Iraq, a far greater percentage than believed former President Clinton should be impeached during the Monica Lewinsky scandal.

Democrats remain far from unified. Prominent party leaders — and a large majority of those in Congress — say talk of impeachment and censure reflect the polarization of politics.

"Impeachment is an outlet for anger and frustration, which I share, but politics ain't therapy," said Rep. Barney Frank, a Massachusetts liberal who declined to sign the Conyers resolution.

"Bush would much rather debate impeachment than the disastrous war in Iraq."

The GOP establishment has welcomed the threat. With Bush's approval ratings lower than for any president in recent history and midterm elections in the offing, Republican leaders view impeachment as kerosene poured on the bonfires of their party base.

"The Democrats' plan for 2006?" Republican National Committee Chairman Ken Mehlman wrote in a fundraising e-mail Thursday. "Take the House and Senate and impeach the president. With our nation at war, is this the kind of Congress you want?"

The argument for an impeachment inquiry — which draws support from prominent constitutional scholars such as Harvard's Laurence Tribe and former Reagan Deputy Attorney General Bruce Fein — centers on Bush's conduct before and after the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

It is argued that Bush and his officials conspired to manufacture evidence of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) to persuade Congress to approve the invasion.

Former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill told CBS News' "60 Minutes" that "from the very beginning there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go. ... It was all about finding a way to do it."

And a senior British intelligence official wrote in what is known as the "Downing Street memo" that Bush officials were intent on fixing "the intelligence and the facts ... around the policy."

Critics point to Bush's approval of harsh interrogation of prisoners captured Iraq and Afghanistan, tactics that human-rights groups such as Amnesty International say amount to torture. Bush also authorized warrantless electronic surveillance of telephone calls and e-mail, subjecting possibly thousands of Americans each year to eavesdropping since 2001.

"Bush is saying 'I'm the president' and, on a range of issues — from war to torture to illegal surveillance — 'I can do as I like,' " said Michael Ratner of the Center for Constitutional Rights. "This administration needs to be slapped down and held accountable for actions that could change the shape of our democracy."

Tribe wrote Conyers, dismissing Bush's defense of warrantless surveillance as "poppycock." It constituted, Tribe concluded, "as grave an abuse of executive authority as I can recall ever having studied."

Not all liberals agree

However, not all scholars, even of a liberal bent, agree that Bush has committed "high crimes and misdemeanors." His legal advice may be wrong, they said, but still resides within the bounds of reason.

"The Clinton impeachment was plainly unconstitutional, and a Bush impeachment would be nearly as bad," said Cass Sunstein, a professor of constitutional law at the University of Chicago.

"There is a very good argument that the president had it wrong on WMD in Iraq but that he was acting in complete good faith."

In Massachusetts and Vermont, though, the discontent with Bush is palpable. These are states that, per capita, have sent disproportionate numbers of soldiers to Iraq. Many in these middle- and working-class towns are not pleased that so many friends and relatives are coming back wounded or dead.

"He picks and chooses his information and can't admit it's erroneous, and he annoys me," said Colleen Kucinski, walking Aleks, 5, and Gregory, 2, home.

Would she support impeachment? Kucinski nods her head "yes" before the question is finished. "Without a doubt. This is far more serious than Clinton and Monica. This is about life and death. We're fighting a war on his say-so, and it was all wrong."



To: KLP who wrote (184166)3/27/2006 8:39:27 AM
From: michael97123  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Your replies are becoming more hysterical every day and I dont appreciate your new fascist personna. Take that kind of thinking to the Sudan. Next you will be calling for beheadings of folks who use the term dumbya. Please reread your post to Scott and then back off. You are sounding like a brown shirt.



To: KLP who wrote (184166)3/27/2006 4:05:46 PM
From: cnyndwllr  Read Replies (5) | Respond to of 281500
 
Karen, re: "Not only should Bush NOT be impeached, but the people who bring that type of idiotic, partisan stupidity to the table, should themselves be heavily fined, or maybe even jailed, for bringing false charges against a sitting President.

Only the vacant eyed, would think Bush has done anything but try to help the US citizens through a very difficult last several years."


I don't know if he's "tried to help the US citizens through a very difficult last several years." Maybe he did but when you use an "ends justify the means" approach one thing is very clear; you'd better be right.

And, guess what, he was so stupidly, incompetently and stubbornly wrong that as the house of cards begins to fall, as a majority of non-kool aid drinkers in the congress or the courts someday get a clear look at what he's done and as the harsh light of justice shines through, there will be a day of reckoning. When that happens his "good motives" will be lost in hurricane of unlawful shortcuts, unacceptable deceptions and illegal peripheral activities by those who sacrificed their ethics for dogma or profit.

You, Karen, should hope that no one goes to jail. Your disciple personality would suffer seeing those you've followed so devotedly for the last several years take a last fall.

Better for you to live in the good old days of 2001-2004; the days when all you had to do was say it and you had an outpouring of passionate support, no matter what was said. How about a trip down memory lane to review just a few of the silly things that were so passionately screamed as "the truth?"

*Saddam was a bad as Hitler, and nearly as dangerous with WMDs, the capacity to threaten the American "homeland" and a dangerous ability to rule the Middle East.

*If we didn't invade Iraq it would "continue" to be a haven for Islamic terrorists.

*Pat Tillman died a hero charging into enemy fire.

*That little POW girl Jessica Lynch, bravely fired her rifle until it was empty and killed enemy soldiers. The Special forces soldiers executed a dangerous nighttime raid to rescue her from the teeth of the enemy.

*The Iraqi people would accept our leadership and welcome us with flowers and open arms.

*The Iraqi insurgents are terrorists, dead enders and criminals, not nationalists or Sunni citizens trying to prevent a cruel and oppressive majority Shiite gov from ruining their lives and taking them from their homes in the middle of the night. And they're on their last, last, last, last, last legs. (They evidently have a lot of legs.)

*The vast majority of Iraqis want us to stay for as long as it takes to...

*We aren't building permanent military bases for an American presence in Iraq.

AND THE BIG ONE....We can "win" in Iraq if we have the "will."

Now you don't get that automatic crowd-pleasing support unless you stay on the disciple threads. So you're left with the last refuge of the wrong, attacking the patriotism or the person of those speaking words you don't want to hear. And it appears you'd like some of them to be "heavily fined, or maybe even jailed, for bringing false charges against a sitting President."

Nice touch but even that's losing its comfortability, isn't it? Ed