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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: neolib who wrote (187611)	5/28/2006 1:57:56 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Respond to of 281500

Neolib, re: The entire tone for engagement in the WOT has been set from the top of this administration, including their lawyers, and is well known. Why blame the grunts at the bottom? Too true, in the "you're either with us or against us" mindset of our peerless leaders those Iraqi civilians were clearly "against us," especially those too young to have firm views. As you undoubtedly understand, these types of atrocities are inevitable in those times and places where buddies get blown away by faceless enemies supported by a civilian population. Fear and anger invariably create a murderous backlash against the only target that presents itself; the civilians. At that point you can be CERTAIN that the insurgency will NOT be quashed. We've been at that point in Iraq for years but the lies and coverups of the military and civilian leadership have concealed it. We lost the Iraq "democracy, western friendly" campaign a long time ago. It's way past time to stop thinking Hawk-like thoughts about "winning" and start doing whatever damage control we can while we get our young men and women the fuck out of there. As I've said before, ten years from now most of the mothers, fathers, wives and children of the dead soldiers will be taking a critical look at this history and asking, "What did my loved one's death accomplish?" The answer will bring them no peace. This administration is quickly becoming the most hated, reviled and ridiculed in our 2+ century young history. Ed

To: neolib who wrote (187611)	5/28/2006 3:02:01 PM
From: Hawkmoon	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

The entire tone for engagement in the WOT has been set from the top of this administration, including their lawyers, and is well known. Why blame the grunts at the bottom? Neolib.. Who do you think you're talking to? I was there for a year and a half, and the last part of that was directly supporting a combat unit engaged in daily operations. I know, for a fact, that such abuses against innocent (let alone executing insurgents) were not condoned, let alone promoted, by the commanders in Iraq, nor by anyone in National Leadership. The reality is that in war, discipline and professionalism is ALL-IMPORTANT. It must be constantly reinforced, encouraged, and abuses punished. There are quite a few examples available where US forces were engaged in brutal crimes during WWII against both enemy soldiers and civilians. And yes.. they were hushed up, and the perpetrators punished or demoted "quietly". And of course, as we saw in "Band of Brothers", Lieutenant Steele allegedly murdered German prisoners in Normandy. And then there is the infamous Biscari Massacre in 1943, where 70+ unarmed German and Italian prisoners were massacred by soldiers of the 45th infantry division: en.wikipedia.org And then the Canicatti Massacre, against in Sicily, 1943: en.wikipedia.org The Chenogne massacre in which 60 German soldiers were killed in retaliation for the German massacre of US soldiers at Malmedy: thisisfolkestone.co.uk The Balangiga massacre of 1901 in the Phillipines: answers.com All of these were ILLEGAL war crimes committed against the enemy. And I have to attribute the causality of these atrocities to a failure of leadership in controlling the actions of soldiers who are facing the dehumanizing effects of day to day, kill or be killed, combat. That's the job of the Officers and NCO's in charge.. To remind soldiers who we have tasked with engaging in the barbarity of war, which is basically the "legalized" murder of fellow human beings to advance political causes, that they even in the midst of the carnage, it's all important that they retain a grasp on their humanity. But then again.. bombing of entire civilian population centers is not much different than authorizing soldiers to level a town and leave no survivors. It's a struggle that ALL soldiers have to deal with. Especially when we're dealing with an enemy that would not grant us a similar mercy, were the roles reversed. Hawk