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Pastimes : Ask God -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Stan who wrote (39319)	5/29/2006 9:51:42 PM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 39621

Well , we all can see tolerantly thru history many things horrible and insane , yet many things have come from many sources that does show that "God" was always there working thru many channels after all , and gave his message often thru pagans as well. ;-) Einstein was not as concerned as the earliest Christians of keeping the body intact for delivery up unto heaven as a whole for the latter resuurection of the 'return".....his brain sits in a jar somewhere kept safe for study in Princeton . Now this would seem to put most people off and most assuredly be horrifying to the early Christians who were careful to bury themselves whole , but i can testify here that once the electric current is turned off in the nervous system at the moment of death , all sensation as you knew it called "life " is then at an end . It may seem a maudlin thought , but no more sad than to see martyrs blowing themsleves and others to pieces in the name of a "heaven" and an afterlife or the maudlin effects surrounding even today's burying ceremonies . To me death is a big sleep & return to elelments . What is done experienced in life is all that matters...but you can bury me without casket under a tree perhaps , and my body will feed it while i drift off into eternity to fathom more ! ;-)

To: Stan who wrote (39319)	6/2/2006 5:38:49 PM
From: 2MAR$	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 39621

Of course. And I have seen the pattern for many years. My belief in Christ helps me understand the darkness of the selfish aims of men, especially in religious leaders. When you see the tendency to discount the effect of centuries of ideas & thoughts coming out of those schools of philosophy (centuries before Jesus) because they are not sanctioned by the popularly held religious beliefs dressed up with all the miracles halelujahs & hosiahs , it does not change an iota of the importance that these men strived to fashion & offer new models probing depth & understanding of that interior space of themselves. A way of better living , a concept the Greeks explored well delving into the realm of the human psyche , and just the recognition of the concept behind the word itself "Psyche" is a huge new direction of human thought . They developed a vast wealth of new concepts and the words by which to express them unparalleled in that era . The Bible takes shape & real depth when its first translated into Greek , and given its first "body" . That depth of expression and coherency of ideas is directly tied to the amount of flourishing of human conception and evolution of expression contained within the lexicon of Greek vocabulary . That one thought alone would indicate to me more divinity than many of the other "claims" made by religions in their myths, that this one people did creat such an incredible expanded language/vocabulary itself adressing so many more subtle distinctions of every facet of human involvement and interaction . For it to be maintained "that he who shall believeth in me , shall have everlasting life" , should be an invitation to live and explore exactly that discipline of the mind and growing the values that these men had sought after before , and does not set up any one individual or "last prophet" as the last word . One does receive in fact that most special perspective of the nature our own humanity in affairs both internal and external , and to the world & universe at large to a greater extent than ever imagined before . This when we know the truth of History as it really is , those remarkable human beings that lended their lives and devoted their thoughts to a deepening understanding of reality . Were some philosophers driven by the need just to expound and put on clever arguments just to impress and capture the fascination of audiences for gain or prestige , surely . But this kind of investigation into "Life" was not just the Greek way , and down in the "Holy Land" youd find the equivilents of mythologic prophets , rabbis & magicians & messianic martyrs for this was the Jewish way . Over in China you have another way of approach into "order & harmony" and social responsibility , and they had their "great thinkers" and that was their way . Over in India there was another ...on and on , yet all expressing some facet of human attempts to come to terms with its own nature and the economy of living better lives not just materially but internally in the life of the "Psyche" which is more unique and developed in man . Religions by their very populous nature always tend to claim , capitalize , syncretise, dominate, capture and preserve to some extent , this perennial philosophy that had been growing in the minds of good men from the dawning of civilization and before ...to encapsulate & preserve thru building idols & temples and written down scriptures and created a priestly caste devoted just for that purpose of maintaining that order of beliefs as it was perceived by that tribe or society of men , which in the world 2000yrs ago was a mass of trade routes and overlapping cultures with mystical cults & phiosophies abounding . Whe Saul goes to Tarsus , that city was already 2000yrs old at that time . If it were proven tomorrow that Jesus did not die on the cross or rise from the tomb , or that Mohammed (PBUH) did not truely convey the last word on earth regarding God's mind , once again it would not change one iota or grain of sand of the need for ongoing exploration of ourselves and in what ways we are to conduct ourselves together while we spend this time on earth in these bodies . Already in the last century pretty much the Genesis has changed form as new information has come to light that can be fit into the still fragile mosaic of even our present human understanding . But it is only thru some effort towards striving for "rational understanding " of our place as a part of a greater whole , which is the truth of the world . No man is an island .

To: Stan who wrote (39319)	6/2/2006 6:23:29 PM
From: 2MAR$	Respond to of 39621

The vast overhang itself from history and human sectarian "belief" , of this present state of "clash of civilizations" in the confrontation of religions & peoples in the ME .... After 911 , you certainly have the prompt reemergence of the rising spirit & specter of the Crusades all over again and knee jerk reeaction of the call to arms of the faithful in the Armegeddonist camps by sectarian "leaders" on both sides, on all sides and many at war with each other on the same side . And all claiming to be directed by the "truth" of their scriptures . For you to say get back to the essential "Christ" is to say no more than what that perennial philosophy that was taught by Epictetus or others centuries before Jesus back before . There have been preachers all over the fundamenatlist world recently and always at hand offering their flocks diatribes of scriptural revelations that decree this or that outcome of the defeat and destruction of the other . Yet you would mention a return of devotion regards the sanctity & preservation of the mind & soul and that really always fell into the realm of philosophy. Religion was always at its best when it finds the spirit of this in its churches , temples or mosques . Those contemplations that would be called "divine" but really emanate out from your own psyche if a man has chosen to delve deep enough into himself and into the truer fundamental realities of life and that which he sees around himself . Heaven is promised to the believer of coursec , and all over again you find the same messianic martyrdom playing out in those same sand filled regions . It was nearly 500Bc that Socrates first exclaims : " I am not a citizen of Athens , I am a citizen of the world " As a philosopher Jesus was saying exactly the same thing hopefully , but being poor and from the country had to use a limited religious lexicon and framework of the tribal mode his psyche was constructed around . The allusions, analogies & parables offered in the scriptures were found no less offered time and again thru others lips as well . The promise of eternal life of this young utopian rabbi , is another way of expressing an deep emotional hope & need of all men to escape the banal crudity of day to day existence often this world represents . There is not one early founding father of Christianity that holds more importance to me than I would consider the role of an Epictetus Zeno or Socrates . No more a Moslem saint or prophet either , for all that is an illusion religions & their priests & preachers create. nice quotes from Einstein here "He who joyfully marches to music rank and file, has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would surely suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be a part of so base an action. It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." "A human being is a part of a whole, called by us _universe_, a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) rescomp.stanford.edu