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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: one_less who wrote (188054)	6/2/2006 1:05:44 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

>> Informed people who express hope for the Iraqi people to have liberty and justice under an autonomous government of the people understand the merits of those arguments. I guess those "informed people" is you and your buddies. Just as the "informed poeple" warned about WMD, and the "informed people" said Iraq will be a shining example of democracy and stability, and the "informed people" said Sadr was finished when he was surouned in Karbala. Well my "informed" friend. Let's put your money where your mouth is. Let's make predictions about the future of Iraq and set real milestones and time tables. We'll see which of us is better informed and able to predict the future. BTW, do you remember Jacob Snyder? His predictions have pretty much all come true, and he predicted plenty...how many of pro-war's predictions have come true? ya right! you were informed, but your information was forged...I forgot.

To: one_less who wrote (188054)	6/2/2006 1:17:16 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

We don't know the future yet and the whole thing could collapse under the weight of radical religious extremism, extremes of tribal loyalty, political extremism, extreme ethnic racism, the lack of ability for Iraqis to adapt to the dramatic cultural changes needed, etc. "Etc.?" If you change "could collapse" to "undoubtedly will collapse," fill in a few etc.'s and acknowledge that this was all "knowable" well before we went in with little more than blind ignorance and fervent hope, then you'll have the beginning of a pragmatic view of the situation. After that maybe you can explain to all the families that lost someone in Iraq just exactly what it was that their loved ones had to die for. And of course there are the hundreds of billions of dollars squandered, the loss of worldwide trust and confidence in the US and the growing multitudes of even more radicalized young men willing to die trying to kill Americans. But I guess you'd say that's excusable if you attribute "good motives" to those who bet the farm on that sucker bet. I.e.; "honorable human beings have taken a stand against the brutal tyranny of extremism and ignorance. It is a struggle not a cake walk and noble people have more and more embraced it. What's noble about a gaggle of fools who struggle to justify the most absurdly unrealistic policies all the while creating tremendous harm tilting at windmills? What's noble about continuing a failed policy after it should have long ago become clear failure is not only an "option," it's inevitable? And what's noble about sending other people's children to kill and die in the futile endeavor while your own remain safe at home? It's not enough to say you're against bad things. If you want to "take a stand against the brutal tyranny of extremism and ignorance" then go get a brain from the Wizard before you run off half-cocked and throw gasoline on the fire. Surely you can understand that simple point? Or can you? Ed

To: one_less who wrote (188054)	6/2/2006 6:01:10 PM
From: GST	Respond to of 281500

<The other thing that you seem so opposed to, that also has merit, is that honorable human beings have taken a stand against the brutal tyranny of extremism and ignorance> You must be referring to the honorable majority of the US population who now see this tragic war for the phony, ignorant, extreme ideological abuse of US 'power' that it represented from day one. Yes, we will be better off when honorable people stand up against this extremism and ignorance and end this misguided invasion.