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Politics : PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: DuckTapeSunroof who wrote (743474)	6/23/2006 3:20:48 PM
From: Srexley	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 769670

"So you know I'm not 'shy' about posting my opinions." I have made no claim that you were shy about anything. I indicated that it was bothersome that you refused to answer my direct question. I would rather not waste time to go there again, and would rather focus on the positive that we are actually sharing opinions now. "and ALWAYS cut the Sunnis out of wealth from the oil --- " Your arguments make perfect sense when you inject statements like this as basis for them. If the government does this, your scenario becomes more likely. The argument then boils down to IF this will happen. You state it as a certainty, and I will say that I have more faith in the integrity of the new government. That said, you may be right. I hope you are wrong and you may say that hope is not a good argument. From my perspective you have no hope (in this case) so you have assigned the worse case scenario as the likely outcome. "So, you can 'hope' all you want to --- but I don't think the Sunnis are gonna be 'happy' without $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$." I don't "hope" that sunnis will be happy with no money, I hope the unity government has the intelligence, compassion and common sense to run things fairly. "No kidding. That's EXACTLY what I argued would happen in the civil war." I think the US can help the side that is RIGHT. If we pull out, then the side that is WRONG may be in charge. At that point we would be worse off than ever. "Looks that way." You say I am naive, I say you are a pessimist. It really is the crux of our differences in this case. I have faith in humans, and therefore feel my "hope" for them is not unfounded. You believe in the worst, which in this case is that the Kurds and Shia will crap on the sunnis and drive them into poverty and dispair. The constituion they have drawn up and democratic elections are tools to make your view less likely. Maybe you are right and Arab people have no hope, but I think they can be as productive and peaceful as other races. I "hope" I am right. "and maybe they are all gonna sit around a campfire singing 'Kumbaya' if we just ask 'em nicely enough --- but I wouldn't put real money on that!" Because you have no "hope". You seem to only see the worst. Note that I don't think they will sing kumbaya, but I believe they could live in peace as Iraqi citizens. "the only government that will be able to hold all of 'Iraq' together is an Autocratic one (a Dictatorship --- " You have been crystal clear on this. I have a more optimistic and hopeful view of humanity. Get rid of the hateful influences over time and people will choose peace and freedom. "then you need to let the various ethnic groups carve out their OWN nations..." As we both have said, time will tell. Maybe you are correct and groups with different views can never live peacfully in one nation. I "hope" you are wrong. If shia and sunni populations can learn tollerence as Christians, Jews and Muslims do in the U.S., then you will be wrong. I don't think it is the soil we live on or the color of our skin that allow us to accomplish this. It is a system that allows equality and freedom along with the rule of law. That is why it pisses me off so much when people preach hatred of our country. If they could adopt a similar structure, they could have success too. If they preach and teach hatred and intollerence they can't. Bush is trying to help make this transition with these people. A brave call, and one that should be encouraged. But there are a lot of haters (the far left) and doubters (guys like you) that make it hard. To see the middle east join the modern world and have a working model that shows the world that arabs can do this just like Americans and Europeans would do more good for the future of the world than anything I can imagine. To let long term enemies continue there ways by drawing lines in the sand just dooms us to more of the same in the future. Your vision has no hope. Just maintain status quo. No courage or conviction in that postion. "so what makes you think that the much bloodier, much less cohesive place of 'Iraq' will be any better?" Never said it would be easy, and admit that it is harder than I thought it would be. The reason I think it will be easier than it was for us is that it has been done and we are helping. Maybe a lame example, but we invented a bunch of cool stuff like cars, etc. The Japanese (and many other countries like S. Korea) didn't invent these things, but they made huge progress fast because they had a great model to work with. Hopeful Scott here. Much more entertaining to actually discuss ideas and philosophies than to re-construt posts as nauseum discussing stuff that matters not.