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Strategies & Market Trends : Value Investing -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Suma who wrote (24316)7/12/2006 8:37:48 PM
From: Grommit  Respond to of 78462
 
Things to think about.

1. If you did not own any of the stock right now, would you buy it? if not -- then don't buy anymore.

2. If you would buy it now (question one), do you already own too much? If so -- then don't buy it.

3. I did not even look at the stock. Your loss is already realized, but not recognized. There are many other stocks to place a bet on. (Your gain on stock B can offset the loss on stock A. It doesn't have to be a double sized bet on A.)

PS -- sometimes I ignore rule number 2, if I just *know* the stock will go up. i.e. If I bought something at $30, and then can buy it again at $27, I will. Thinking that I will sell the $30 purchase very soon, when the price goes over $30. But I must think it is a screaming "buy" at $27.

grommit



To: Suma who wrote (24316)7/12/2006 9:02:56 PM
From: Paul Senior  Respond to of 78462
 
"To exit gracefully..." That'd be about the last thing I'd ever be worrying about. -g- Just sell.

If the purchases are in a taxable account, and if I were bothered as much as you seem to be about the loss, Suma, I'd certainly reduce pain and sell 100 or 200 of that $36 lot, and take the tax loss. If I didn't expect to live too long, I believe, for me, I would hope to spend the proceeds, if I could while I was able, and would try to not redeploy funds back into stocks.

PFE: Several professional value investors/value funds have bought PFE at current levels. I see no reason to sell the shares I have - I'm holding. OTOH, I'm not so willing to add more at current price and PFE is only a very small position for me.



To: Suma who wrote (24316)7/12/2006 9:11:34 PM
From: Paul Senior  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 78462
 
"To exit gracefully..." That'd be about the last thing I'd ever be worrying about. -g- Just sell.

If the purchases are in a taxable account, and if I were bothered as much as you seem to be about the loss, Suma, I'd certainly reduce pain and sell 100 or 200 of that $36 lot, and take the tax loss. If I didn't expect to live too long, I believe, for me, I would hope to spend the proceeds, if I could while I was able, and would try to not redeploy funds back into stocks.

PFE: Several professional value investors/value funds have bought PFE at current levels. I see no reason to sell the shares I have - I'm holding. OTOH, I'm not so willing to add more at current price and PFE is only a very small position for me.

Jmo, there may be no right or wrong answer; I only respond because I considered the question. And although the question was directed at 'more savy investors', that's a qualifier about which I make no claim for myself - especially on market days like today.



To: Suma who wrote (24316)7/12/2006 10:15:53 PM
From: safelywelathy  Respond to of 78462
 
Suma,

We are recommending that our members hang on for a little while in PFE. The big pharma names have been beaten down in for the last couple years. PFE is throwing off a nice (and growing) dividend while you wait for the cap gains to come back. Look for a 10-15% increase in the dividend this year. PFE throws off a ton of cash and they just got a nice premium for their consumer products business. Hank and the boys are also in the middle of a cost cutting campaign that will save the company $4bil.

I am assuming you aren't looking to retire tomorrow or a week from now. The paper losses can hurt the ego a little bit. If you sell and make them premanent losses, they are going to hurt a lot more. Personally I own some shares myself and I am in the same boat as you. I'm not going anywhere.

Hope this helps.

Christopher Yeager
www.safelywealthy.com



To: Suma who wrote (24316)7/12/2006 11:06:53 PM
From: E_K_S  Respond to of 78462
 
Hi Suma - I am in a similar situation with PFE as I own shares in both my IRA and taxable accounts. Both are held w/ a small net loss but I am not worried since PFE throws off a good dividend while I wait for management to add new drugs to their franchise.

If you do not need the funds, PFE represents less than 5% of your portfolio and it resides in your taxable account, you could do a tax loss sale for your 200 shares w/ a cost basis of $36, wait 31 days and buy these shares back at the current price. You would lower you net cost basis and still maintain the same ownership interest. You could then use the booked loss to off set against other 2006 equity gains of other 2006 portfolio income.

In the past (over ten years) large Pharma stocks demanded a 30 PE. PFE and many of these drug companies have not been this cheap and now trade at PE's between 12-15.
finance.yahoo.com

Every diversified portfolio should have a core position of drug companies. PFE ranks as one of my top five holdings in my IRA and ranks as one of my top 15 holdings in my taxable account. I repositioned my investment in drug companies last year adding new names and upping my core positions. I have several different cost basis in my taxable account but in the IRA it does not matter. The dividend income generated by PFE in the IRA is used to buy stocks in other sectors.

I plan to do no new selling (or tax loss selling) on my current PFE positions but as opportunities arise, I have a list of new drug companies I want to add. It's just a question if a value opportunity presents itself. PFE is the cheapest of the group I watch and I consider it an excellent value buy at current prices.

Finally, tax loss selling can be tricky as most investors wait until the 4th quarter to net out their losses. That is why we typically see an October and November sell off and then end of year rally. So if you are going to do the sell and buy back after 31 days, I would suggest setting up the strategy during the summer rally.

That's what I have been doing and it has worked out well so far.

EKS

FWIW - I am a long term holder of stocks and have positions that I have owned more than 10 years. Some investors like to micro manage their accounts and are not patient enough to hold over a business or economic cycle. Every time you make a trade, you have a 50% chance of being wrong. I have been wrong many times and there is no one correct answer to your question...only different strategies to consider.



To: Suma who wrote (24316)7/13/2006 3:18:19 AM
From: EL KABONG!!!  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 78462
 
Hi Suma,

Let's talk first about Pfizer.

Their PE is down around 11 or 12, depending on the daily change in the price of the stock. Their growth rate is only roughly half of their PE, so to consider an investment in Pfizer, a potential investor should be looking at PFE as a value investment, not a growth investment. With the PE down around 11, this is at or very near the historic low for PFE, which (to me) represents a rare buying opportunity based on value measures. (This presumes that one has enough time remaining in one's life to allow for PFE's various multiples and ratios to recover to historic norms, for both PFE and for the pharmaceutical industry as a whole.)

Currently, PFE has roughly $23B in its cash coffers, not counting the roughly $16.6B that they get from J&J for the sale of the consumer healthcare division. Of the $16.6B, they get to keep maybe $13B or $14B after taxes and sale/transfer expenses. They've already announced that they intend to use the proceeds from the sale on a stock buyback (currently stated as about $17B, meaning that some money will come from the coffers to reach $17B in total). The buybacks will occur in stages throughout 2006, and are expected to be completed in 2007. The buybacks should be sufficient (give or take a little) to offset the revenues and earnings lost in the sale of the consumer unit, so don't look for anything positive in the stock price from this sale until at least 2008 (again, give or take). Whatever remains of the $23B is an ample war chest to fund R&D or make acquisitions, probably the best war chest in the industry.

On the upside, Pfizer has a plethora of new drugs at various stages of development and approval somewhere within their pipeline for new drugs. Most certainly they are way, way ahead of any competitors in terms of the sheer numbers of new drugs making their way to market. Exhubera (sp??) is a new drug for diabetics. Champix is intended to help people quit smoking. And Sutent is another good prospect, this one in the fight against cancer.

On the downside, sales of Lipitor may crater because Merck's exclusivity on Zocor will expire, as will B-M's Pravachol. As the generic versions of these drugs enter the marketplace, sales of Lipitor may suffer as doctor's prescribe the much cheaper generics to their patients. Sales of other drugs might also come under pressure. So, not everything is fine and dandy. They win some, and they lose some.

Overall, PFE should do very well into 2008 and 2009. Certainly, they are the premier drug company to be investing in at the moment.

Now, let's take a look at Suma.

I glanced at your profile, and I see you're worried about the viability of your own future, presumably based on your age. I'm guessing from your post that you fear you may have insufficient time remaining in your life to wait for the price of PFE stock to recover.

Well, here's the questions that you have to ask yourself.

Why did you buy PFE in the first place? Were the proceeds intended for your use, or for the use of your heirs? If the answer is that the proceeds are for your own use, does this money represent money that you need to pay the rent, pay your bills and buy milk for the cat? Or is this money simply play money, money that if it were in your pocket, you'd blow on the tables in Las Vegas? If it's money you need, you should never had bought stocks with it, any stocks, not just PFE. At an advanced age, you want "guaranteed" income, not growth or value returns. Your money should be in fixed instruments. If, on the other hand, the PFE money is to be left to heirs, then the question becomes, what would they do with the money? Do they need it now? If so, stocks ain't the way to go. The market could go into a secular bear cycle at any moment, and that cycle could last for years. If the money is there for your heirs' future use, say their retirement needs or maybe to pay for college for a grandchild, then maybe there's enough time to wait for the price of the stock to recover.

What's your tolerance for risk? If the answer is low, then sell the darned stock now, take your lumps and be done with it. Once burned, twice smart or something like that. Rationalize the loss to yourself, whatever it takes to live with it. We all make investing mistakes. Typically, our mistakes are called "long term holds". <gg>

Getting serious again, if the price of PFE is affecting your sleep patterns, then just sell it on its next rally.

I don't expect you to answer these questions in a public forum. They're questions that you ask yourself. Don't lie to yourself, or try to fool yourself. The only one who gets hurt is you.

Best wishes...

EK!!!



To: Suma who wrote (24316)7/13/2006 8:29:14 AM
From: Wallace Rivers  Respond to of 78462
 
Just to throw one more idea out on PFE, only if you absolutely need to realize a capital loss on the shares you own, yet still wish to maintain an equal weight for potential appreciation in the sector:
Sell your position in PFE, and buy a like amount of another large cap pharma which is equally beaten down.
I say this having no opinion on, and very limited knowledge of PFE, other than it is one of the big guns in pharma, with the concurrent risks and opportunities.
My investment style is such that, could I afford to, I would most likely hold...it is way off its highs, pays a substantial dividend which is amply covered. JMHO, and good luck with your decision.