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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (191548)	7/12/2006 11:22:29 PM
From: GST	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

<you prefer popularity over principle> I prefer that we take pride in our values -- pride in our ability to set an example for freedom based on respect for human rights and the freedom that is only possible under the rule of law. Bush stands for the perversion of all that Americans hold dear -- the perversion of freedom -- the perversion of human rights -- the perversion of the rule of law -- the perversion of democracy. We have a leadership that has shamed us in front of the rest of the world. There is no issue of popularity versus principle -- there is only the issue of integrity, and the shame that Bush has brought to America -- the shame of a President who has completely abandoned the high principles that once gave us such pride in our democracy. The world see us for what we have become -- lawless and deceitful people who have abandoned our principles and now act out of political expedience and abuse our power justifying our criminal deeds with empty and hypocritical rhetoric of "freedom" and "democracy".

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (191548)	7/13/2006 7:09:22 PM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "So you prefer popularity over principle, eh?" You have no principles. The fact that you were willing to lie to the American public in order to get us into this war pretty much proves it. Re: "Better to be popular, and take no actions that enable democratic reform and accountable government to take root in the Muslim world, right?" This would be a better argument if you had a way of enabling democratic reforms and accountable government to the Muslim world. All you have is the ability to kill people and break things. Re: "It seems to me that human history is full of examples where popularity over principle has led us down the path of self-destruction." It's also full of examples where principles have led people down the road to self-destruction. But you don't have any principles, so don't worry about it. Re: "The Taliban were initially pretty popular because they brought order to the chaos that was Afghanistan after the Soviets left. But when they told people they could listen to TV, radio, put their women in Burqhas and denied the children their long-time pastime of flying kites, they be very unpopular and easy to overthrow. But we never thought it would be "popular" for us to overthrow them.. It would have enraged the Pakistanis, concerned the Russians and Chinese, and any other number of other countries who would have perceived the US as "over-reacting" to the spate of terrorist bombings perpetrated by Al Qai'da." You're off on some weird tangent. On SI soon after 9/11, I am on record as having supported the overthrow of the Taliban, and as having said that we would be treated as heroes by the locals. Now we seem to have overstayed our welcome and our losses there are mounting. Re: "Now, of course, we had to suffer a brutal attack first that destroyed one of our premier urban landmarks and killed 3,000 people before we finally decided that principle was more important than popularity." We lost the WTC because our police agencies were lazy and incompetent. Since then, they've woken up. Eventually, in the normal human trend, they will again become lazy and incompetent. And if we are still pissing off large swaths of the globe, the terror will return here. None of what the US military is doing in Iraq is helping in the war on terror. The US military didn't stop the Brits and Spanish from getting bombed. Your whole concept on "principles" revolves around your defining principles so that only you have them. It's like talking to the Queen in Alice in Wonderland. All humans have principles. It's what they use to simplify complex situations. A good principle for the US is to avoid land wars in Asia. Remember that one? Oh yeah, you're one of those koooooks that thinks we could have won in Vietnam. -- Carl