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Pastimes : Let's Talk About the Wars (moderated) -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: carranza2 who wrote (5)	8/12/2006 12:02:17 PM
From: Ilaine	Respond to of 441

Thanks for posting. I don't know what to say. Right now I am just very, very angry. However, I don't think the word "fascism" applies here -- it's something very similar, though, so if that is the word people use, I am not going to argue with it. But I prefer the term "totalitarian." But I think it's impossible to see into people's hearts. I have a Pakistani client whose former husband is from Afghanistan. Her entire family is OK, his is not, but you couldn't tell that by looking at him. You can't tell from the way he acts at work and in other public venues that his new wife is kept home confined to a Taliban-style existance, not allowed to drive, not allowed to go out except all covered up. You can't tell by looking at him that he takes his daughter to be taught Arabic by a teacher who also teaches the children to hate Christians, not five miles from my own house. You can't tell that he's planning on marrying his daughter to her first cousin and keeping her locked up once she reaches puberty, that she was promised to her first cousin in marriage the day she was born. All the men who were arrested in England were quiet, friendly, neighborly, polite, hung out with Christians and Muslims both.

To: carranza2 who wrote (5)	8/12/2006 8:15:17 PM
From: Ilaine	Respond to of 441

>>>>The Spread of Homegrown Terror - Are British Muslims really a threat? By Patrick Basham The recent homegrown plot in Britain to blow up transatlantic flights will intensify the fear that the country’s 1.6 million Muslims are rejecting political tolerance and free speech for a violent, radicalized version of Islam. There is a real concern that British Muslims do pose a threat to that country and its traditional values. So how prevalent are such radical views among British Muslims? Some answers are provided by the most comprehensive survey to date of Muslim opinion in Britain. The results from NOP Research, broadcast by Channel 4-TV on August 7, are startling. Forty-five percent say 9/11 was a conspiracy by the American and Israeli governments. This figure is more than twice as high as those who say it was not a conspiracy. Tragically, almost one in four British Muslims believe that last year’s 7/7 attacks on London were justified because of British support for the U.S.-led war on terror. When asked, “Is Britain my country or their country?” only one in four say it is. Thirty percent of British Muslims would prefer to live under Sharia (Islamic religious) law than under British law. According to the report, “Half of those who express a preference for living under Sharia law say that, given the choice, they would move to a country governed by those laws.” Twenty-eight percent hope for the U.K. one day to become a fundamentalist Islamic state. This comports with last year’s Daily Telegraph newspaper survey that found one-third of British Muslims believe that Western society is decadent and immoral and that Muslims should seek to end it. The news is no less alarming on the question of freedom of speech. Seventy-eight percent support punishment for the people who earlier this year published cartoons featuring the Prophet Mohammed. Sixty-eight percent support the arrest and prosecution of those British people who “insult Islam.” When asked if free speech should be protected, even if it offends religious groups, 62 percent of British Muslims say No, it should not. Also concerning freedom of speech, as the NOP Research survey reports, “hardcore Islamists” constitute nine percent of the British Muslim population. A slightly more moderate group is composed of “staunch defenders of Islam.” This second group comprises 29 percent of the British Muslim population. Individuals in this group aggressively defend their religion from internal and external threats, real or imagined. The scary reality is that only three percent of British Muslims “took a consistently pro-freedom of speech line on these questions.” The Muslim threat to British security is so severe that the assistant London police commissioner, Tarique Ghaffur, has called for an inquiry into the radicalization of young Muslims. Ghaffur sadly describes “a generation of angry young people vulnerable to exploitation.” Before the London bombings, British intelligence services estimated that one percent of British Muslims either support or are involved in terrorism. While this is mainly a peaceful and productive immigrant population, a significant number are prepared to act against their own country. The British government believes that, in recent years, 3,000 British Muslims have returned home from al Qaeda training camps. Intelligence experts estimate that 1,200 Muslim radicals (80 percent of Pakistani origin) are currently pursuing a terrorist rather than a democratic option to vent their disgust at Tony Blair’s support for America’s invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq and opposition to Hezbollah. This terrorist weed which is choking the U.K. is especially hard to eradicate, because it is growing in British soil. America’s fastest-growing religion is Islam, but here in the States the numbers are not a security concern, as a commitment to Islam has not overwhelmed a strong attachment to America itself — another victory for the cultural melting pot. By contrast, the U.K. embraced taxpayer-subsidized multiculturalism and has paid a very dear price, indeed. The result — cultural apartheid — has encouraged a significant number of Muslims to exhibit more loyalty to fellow Muslims outside of the U.K. than to their fellow Britons. article.nationalreview.com

To: carranza2 who wrote (5)	8/12/2006 10:53:24 PM
From: kumar	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 441

C2, IMHO, our protection and that of the world-at-large lies in education...Like a reporter on Fox said "ideology can not be shaken or overcome with bombs and soldiers..." here is an example : timesofindia.indiatimes.com MUMBAI: A section of Muslims in Mumbai has saluted the British Muslim who alerted the authorities about the alleged plot to blow up US-bound flights in London. Using it as an example, it has favoured similar steps from within the community to isolate terror suspects. Disturbed at the growing demonisation of Islam and Muslims in the wake of 7/11 blasts, many ulema (religious scholars) have started citing the example of the British Muslim who helped the authorities foil a terror plot that could have caused unimaginable devastation mid-air. "I salute the Muslim who tipped British police about the terror plot. I have been telling fellow Muslims here to watch out for the black sheep who bring infamy to the whole community," said Maulana Athar Ali of Majlis-e-Shoora, a socio-religious body. "Islam discourages killing innocents and any conspiracy for such heinous crime should be disclosed and the conspirators handed over to the authorities," added Maulana Athar, who was part of a delegation of prominent Muslims that met police commissioner A N Roy on Thursday. While complaining about the alleged "selective" detention of Muslims after 7/11, the leaders assured the police commissioner of full cooperation in investigations. "I don't think any local Muslim would have been involved in the blasts. But if there was any local support, he should be found and punished,’’ said Maulana Mehmood Daryabadi of All India Ulema Council, a body of religious scholars. He added that Muslims have to be careful and inform the authorities if they see any suspicious behaviour of anyone. Significantly, the community has sought the services of imams of different mosques to reiterate love for the country and prevent any possible radicalisation among the youth. "The prophet said love for your country is part of your imaan (faith). A true Muslim cannot be a traitor,’’ said Maulana Abdul Jabbar Azmi, imam of the Hindustani mosque in Byculla. Maulana Jabbar, who also heads the All India Sunni Tanzeem Aima Masjid, the association of imams of Sunni mosques in the country, has sent letters to thousands of imams across the country to stress Islam’s message about nationalism in their Friday sermons. "One cannot be a good Muslim unless one is loyal to his motherland. Terrorist organisations like Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammed are harming the name of Islam. Muslims have no sympathy for those who perpetrate crime in the name of Islam," said Maulana Jabbar who was one of the speakers at a multi-faith peace meeting held at Nehru centre earlier this week.

To: carranza2 who wrote (5)	8/14/2006 11:14:19 AM
From: Ilaine	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 441

I've been thinking about the questions you raised, and must say, while I don't have the answers, we cannot get rid of freedom of speech and freedom of association merely to be secure. I wish we could make an exception for militant Islamists but we can't. If someone advocates the violent overthrow of present government of the United States -- well, that would have included Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin and other stars in our pantheon of patriots, no? I'm not saying that terrorists can't be distinguished from patriots. Thomas Jefferson didn't advocate putting explosives in baby's milk to blow up jet planes full of vacationers. So we need to focus on the message, and that means more law enforcement personnel who speak Arabic, Dari, Farsi, etc.