SI
SI
discoversearch

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor.  We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community.  If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.
Pastimes : Let's Talk About the Wars (moderated) -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: kumar who wrote (48)8/12/2006 10:57:38 PM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 441
 
Hi, kumar.

Your points are good.

I nonetheless keep thinking about the highly educated imams, scholars who spend years reading and studying the Q'uran, who are the leaders in radical muslim propaganda.

I suppose there's education and there's education.

Studying one thing exclusively, without accepting the possibility that different viewpoints are valuable, is not an education.



To: kumar who wrote (48)8/12/2006 11:23:53 PM
From: carranza2  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 441
 
I think you'll like this piece, kumar:

timesonline.co.uk

The enemy within

Few can have failed to shudder at the thought of a plot to blow up nine passenger planes and the intended mass murder of thousands of innocent people over the Atlantic. Whatever the outcome of the police investigation into a conspiracy that seems to have been stopped just in time, we should praise the alertness of Britain’s often criticised and overstretched intelligence services. Peter Clarke, deputy assistant commissioner at Scotland Yard, says at least three other serious plots by home-grown terrorists have been disrupted since last year’s July 7 attacks on the London Underground. The danger seems ever present.
It is now self-evident that there is an enemy within Britain who wants to destroy our way of life. Most of this relatively small group of fanatics are British-born Muslims who have been educated here and brought up within our tolerant democracy. Those looking for the outward signs that identify them as full of hatred would be hard-pressed to find them. Many seem all too ordinary, perhaps enthusiastic about football and cricket and living “normal” westernised existences in neat terraced houses. They work, study or run small businesses. Most show little indication that they have signed up to the distorted ideology of radical Islam, with its millennial ideology of bringing destruction to the corrupt West. As “sleepers”, they are perfect.

Why is Britain such a breeding ground for these young men, for that is what most of them are? Much can be ascribed to timidity on behalf of the authorities, wedded as they are to a multiculturalism that isolates many young men in ghettos and a reluctance to espouse British values through our schools and institutions. That appeasement was epitomised by the sanctuary offered to extremist Islamic groups in Britain — “Londonistan” — in the pathetic hope that it might offer some form of immunity from violence. The United States, with its intolerant attitude to those preaching hate, has been far more successful in integrating its Muslim citizens, offering them the ideals of patriotism and progress. Even France, which has a bigger Muslim population than Britain and has had its share of troubles with disaffected youth, has not seen the scale of Islamist treachery that we are experiencing here. MI5 believes up to 400,000 people in Britain are sympathetic to violent “jihad” around the world and that as many as 1,200 are involved in terrorist networks.

These extremists are drawn both from our educated classes and the Muslim underclass. The first alienated group seems susceptible to radical recruiters on university campuses, the latter to firebrands they meet in mosques or in prison. There they are fed the lines that the West is evil and corrupt. They are urged to look at a culture of binge drinking, reckless hedonism, moral laxity and materialism. They see little of the advantages to our society of freedom of choice, of religion, of individualism and of equality. Nor is it good enough to claim that extremism is fostered by poverty. Although Pakistanis and Bangladeshis are struggling to do as well as some other second or third-generation immigrant groups, many of the recruits are from relatively privileged backgrounds. It is more a matter of a battle for minds rather than pockets. Add to this the internet, the finishing school of global terror, and a legal system that appears to be inflexible about deporting foreign jihadists, and you have the ingredients for an explosive clash of cultures.

When an undercover reporter from The Sunday Times visited Beeston in Nottinghamshire, where three of the July 7 bombers came from, he found either a denial that they had been involved or, perhaps more alarmingly, respect for them as Muslim martyrs. It is this potent mix of self- delusion — witness all the absurd theories about 9/11 and 7/7 — and a sneaking admiration for jihad even among seemingly sensible Muslims.

The great challenge for Britain is how to stop this and minimise the future risks. Nobody should underestimate the scale of the problem or the time needed. We already have a generation of disaffected Muslims who see any excuse, whether it is war in Iraq, Afghanistan or Lebanon, as a reason for killing their fellow citizens. The government has commissioned studies on combatting the problem, so far with little tangible impact. Tony Blair has been wooing Muslim leaders, too often the radicals rather than the moderates, although this policy seems to lie in shreds as they moan about wars in the Middle East inflaming Islamic youth. They are perfectly entitled to be angry about these conflicts, but that anger should be expressed through the democratic processes of demonstrations and elections.

That is not to say that the government is not right to try to win over Muslim opinion. If terror is to be defeated, you have first to drain the swamp. Muslims have to be persuaded that we are on the same side, that there is no witch-hunt against Islam and that the wars involving British troops are about stopping Islamists and the corruption of their religion. This means Muslims being alert to extremists in their ranks and being prepared to identify them to the police. It means Muslims becoming intolerant of radical mullahs and hounding them out of their mosques. Equally the authorities have a responsibility to crack down on extremists in universities and in prisons, to close internet sites and bookshops that spread hatred and violence, and to take all reasonable measures to protect their citizens.

At times this may seem unjust. Muslims who visit Pakistan will have to be more closely scrutinised and it may seem that they are being systematically targeted. But Muslims will have to understand that it is their co-religionists who are bent on bombing trains and planes and that requires extraordinary measures. A mature Muslim response will be to co-operate and help to eradicate extremists in their midst. It requires the vast majority of Muslims to believe that their future is tied to Britain, a country in which their religion can be respected and freely practised. If the radicals succeed, it will foster only hatred and intolerance.

This low-level war is going to take a huge effort of will and courage. It is going to mean applying what may seem illiberal measures in order to save lives. In return, the state must exercise massive restraint and not abuse that responsibility. But the real key is for Muslims to realise that their future lies here and to embrace British values and reject violent Islamist theology. The country may indeed be in its greatest danger since the second world war, as John Reid, the home secretary, said last week. But as Britain prevailed then, so it will again.



To: kumar who wrote (48)8/13/2006 6:25:39 AM
From: Ilaine  Respond to of 441
 
our protection and that of the world-at-large lies in education

But the news reports from Great Britain are that the plotters in the bomb plot were recruited at the local universities, and were college students.

They were being taught to hate! Not at the college but in extracurricular activities.

I grew up in the 1960's, a heyday of student radicalism in the US. Bill Clinton, our last President, and John Kerry, the last person nominated by the Democrats for the Presidency, are former student radicals.

For that matter, Ahmadinijad, the President of Iran, is a former student radical, who took part in kidnapping and imprisoning Americans during the Iranian revolution against the Shah.

Sayid Qutb, the Egyptian "father" of the Islamist movement, was an exchange student in the United States.

I don't think it's lack of education that's the problem here.

I think it's lack of empathy, lack of love, lack of caring whom you hurt, lack of tolerance for the rights of others to be different from you, lack of respect. Lots of that going around, but loving your enemy won't save you if your enemy doesn't love you.



To: kumar who wrote (48)8/13/2006 10:17:41 PM
From: carranza2  Respond to of 441
 
kumar,

I am linking a longish review of a new John Updike novel, Terrorist, which I think you will enjoy as it deals with a fairly well educated young assimilated American Muslim who goes on the jihadi path. The review notes an exchange that touches I think quite perceptively on your broad point concerning education.

I am only linking the paragraph that deals with the point; you will have to read the entire review if you find the quote interesting. Caveat: I am no fan of Updike and do not plan to read the novel, but the explanation of why education may not be a good solution in all cases I think is quite valuable and very perceptive. Education is an obstacle to the Straight Path, creates too many doubts, and is therefore resisted. We cannot force education on the unwilling, though its rejection is itself a good sign as it suggests doubts.

city-journal.org

The mental laziness of Islamism, its desire that there should be to hand a ready-made solution to all the problems that mankind faces, one that is already known, and its unacknowledged fear that such a solution does not really exist, Updike captures well. When asked by his employer why he does not go for further education, Ahmad replies, “People have suggested it, sir, but I don’t feel the need yet.” Updike, as the omniscient narrator, adds: “More education, he feared, might weaken his faith. Doubts he held off in high school might become irresistible in college. The Straight Path was taking him in another, purer direction.” The refusal of free inquiry derives from an awareness of the fragility of the basis of religious faith; and since certainty is psychologically preferable to truth, the former often being willfully mistaken for the latter, anything that threatens certainty is anathematized with fury.

On the other hand, the reviewer injects his own experience with young Muslim critics living in the West, concluding that they are ignorant of the basis of our achievements. As you can see, the reviewer suggests that they believe all of what we have done is based on plunder, etc., which may have a grain or more of truth but is certainly not the entire truth.

Well, the Muslim youths in the process of being radicalized do indeed need more education; their ignorance is abysmal and dangerous, but I think the reviewer is nonetheless onto something. Perhaps the key to fighting domestic or European Muslim radicalims is to educate them concerning the political and cultural basis of the Western liberal tradition.

In short, this post is a long winded way of saying that you might be onto something. vbg.:

have talked to a lot of young Muslim critics of Western society, living in the West, and few of them were aware of the philosophical basis of Western achievement, which they believed to be merely materialist and founded on crude plunder, never having heard any other viewpoint.