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Politics : Actual left/right wing discussion -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Richnorth who wrote (315)	9/7/2006 6:17:55 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 10087

Those people who argued against the Holocaust or criticized it did not all say it never occurred. Your wording is clumsy. If the Holocaust might happen again I would certainly argue against it, and I certainly would criticize those who actually caused it to happen in the 40s and anyone who supports them or would like to copy them. I think what you mean is those who argue against specific claims about the Holocaust aren't saying it never occurred. Well true there are a number of people who dispute specific claims without asserting that the whole thing didn't occur, or was not an atrocity. However apparently Ahmadinejad did indeed deny that it occurred. What they doubt very much is the claim that 6 million Jews died. Before any attempts could be made by them to ascertain the truth, these so-called "holocaust-deniers/minimizers" were routinely charged with anti-semitism and jailed or their reputations and careers were destroyed and worse. If 5 million Jews were killed it might be useful to correct the error, but the error is not significant in the large sense. The nature of the holocaust and the lessens learned from it would be the same. And I can't think of to many people who are trying to make such a technical correction. Its more common to either deny that it occurred or that it was vastly exaggerated. If it is as genuine as it has been touted to be, it should fear no amount of examination and re-examination and criticisms. While in a sense this is true, considering the real world context any criticism or specific should probably be expressed carefully. Specifically the criticism should start with the point that the Holocaust was indeed a massive atrocity on an unusual scale, and Holocaust denial should itself be criticized. Also its important to have such claims be well grounded, not "I heard that some Zionist wouldn't pay ransom, so the holocaust is all his fault". If a woman says she was raped for a half hour, it probably doesn't make a lot of sense to strongly argue that she was only raped for 25 minutes, even if its technically accurate. Similarly I can understand how victims of the holocaust, and even those who feel association with and compassion for them react negatively to such arguments. It is probably more important to get a large historical event right, so careful and well considered arguments about the specifics could be stated without being useless or automatically noxious, but "careful and well considered" is important. I meant there was an attempt by some Jews to pay a ransom to rescue the prisoners and that the Zionist leaders in Switzerland had refused to pony up the money. When I first read this, I was rather incredulous and so I didn't bother to note down the source. But it is somewhere out there. There are millions of claims out there. Some of them obviously false, a number of them intentionally so. I don't see any reason to give this one any weight without a lot more support. For example I could no longer find the history of Israel, the role of the Irgun and Hagganah terrorists Information about the Irgun, Hagganah, etc. isn't hard to find. The Irgun might legitimately be considered a terrorist organization, and the Lehi/Stern Gang more clearly so. But the Hagganah was more of an army than a terrorist group. It pretty much became the IDF. And it fought the Irgun briefly because the Irgun wouldn't accept disbanding or joining the IDF and because of the Irgun's unacceptable tactics.