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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (202515)	9/11/2006 3:23:47 AM
From: Bilow	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Hi Hawkmoon; Re: "And how is that war anymore "winnable" than Iraq? Hell, we supposedly killed some 300 Taliban fighters over the past couple of weeks, yet we suffered some of the most devastating suicide bombings there ever." This is in response to my saying that I was in favor of getting rid of the Taliban in Afghanistan. By admitting that I was in favor of our efforts in Afghanistan I don't mean to imply that the war there is now "winnable". It looks to me that we're going to get kicked out. Some of that has to be some blowback from Iraq, but I also think we should have pulled out as quickly as possible. Re: "Oh.. I see.. create a vacuum of power and security? You know nature abhors a vacuum Bilow." Do I ever. Re: "So who/what do you think is going to fill that vacuum when we haul @ss and leave our business interests (including the flow of oil) vulnerable to the designs of our rivals and enemies?" The groups you call "Islamic-Fascists" are going to take over, isn't it obvious? And you can kiss our business interests in Iraq goodbye. But this is inevitable now, there is nothing we can do to stop it. Certainly wasting 200 billion dollars per year on the military (which is far more than the dollar advantage of keeping US firms in Iraq) isn't going to save our firms. You already know that our firms moved out of Iraq because the place was too hazardous. In short, our business interests have always been vulnerable, and the US invasion of Iraq only made them more so. It will take a long time for this to reverse. Re: "Isolationism was abandoned as a viable political policy when WWII occurred. We know that we can't pull ourselves back into your own "Fortress: Amerika" and no longer provide political and military leadership or influence." What you really mean here is that you and yours are going to keep talking about the 1930s instead of the 2000s from now until the election in 2008. The question is "what will the American public buy". What the polls are saying is that they will not buy an indefinite war in Iraq. You can talk as much as you like to about 1939, but it doesn't change the situation on the ground. The US public is slowly making up its mind to pull us out. The politicians will eventually follow, then the troops. Re: "Because what is our value to the free world is we're going to leave them to fend for themselves in the midst of wolves?" The countries you're calling "wolves" are actually quite weak and unable to project power much beyond their boundaries. And the majority of the rest of the free world didn't want to see us invade Iraq in the first place and wouldn't lend us a hand afterwards. Some of them volunteered troops for Afghanistan, but as that heats up, I expect that they'll leave. Re: "If the only only nation we're going to be willing to defend against aggression is our own, then eventually we'll find ourselves likely having that situation occur because all of our former friends have been overthrown by other regimes." So do you think that the "Islamic-Fascists" camels will invade Mexico and then come in over our southern border? Or do you think they'll conquer Europe, and then switch their camels for reindeer and sneak in on Christmas Eve when we won't notice? Come on, prove that you're not full of bullshit and tell me exactly how they're going to conquer us. I want to hear how their boats are going to keep from being blown out of the water by our Navy and their airplanes are going to keep from being blown out of the sky by our Air Force. No, the only way they can touch us is with terrorism, but we don't have the sort of Islamic underclass that nourishes that sort of thing. As far as I know, no Islamic country has ever sent the smallest warship against the shores of this country, nor any aircraft. I truly cannot see how they are any threat to us. By contrast, our "Christian" buddies in Germany, Japan, France and Britain have done their level best though we are presently at peace with them. Re: "And even now, aside for Sadr's Mahdi Army, most Shi'a get along rather well with coalition forces in the provinces that are outside of Baghdad." The situation in Iraq has a lot of room to get worse, this is true. I hope we leave before this happens. -- Carl

To: Hawkmoon who wrote (202515)	9/11/2006 3:05:51 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Respond to of 281500

Hawkmoon, re: "When we first arrived, just about EVERYONE (except the Ba'thists) in that country welcomed US troops. You obviously forget the tower of Saddam being dragged down with the help of those US soldiers... Do you pay attention? The statute of Saddam being pulled over was STAGED. The Colonel that staged the event fessed up to it. The "Iraqis" in the video were working for us and the event was filmed to make it look like a big crowd when, in a city of millions, there were only a few people in the square. You're a great example of someone who accepts every propaganda message, no matter how silly, and then continues to believe it long after the truth is widely known. Examples you swallowed for extended periods of time, and may still accept? The Iraqis support us but they're just too beaten down from years of Saddam rule to fight for themselves? The problem with Iraqis fighting their own battles, on our side, is just that they need more training? Terrorist training complexes in Iraq where terrorists were trained to hijack airliners? Tubes for nuclear weapons? Yellowcake from Nigeria? The terrorist meeting with Iraqis in Prague? The terrorist camp in the Kurdish area shows Saddam supported terrorist? The Saddam/Al Queda link? Wmds everywhere? Mobile biological weapons labs? No insurgents, just ex-Saddamist and dead enders? Those who oppose the war in Iraq are hate America people who want us to lose? Democracy will make Iraq "like us?" What we're doing in Iraq is "for the Iraqi people?" And things are getting better? And, by the way, the reason the Shiites aren't fighting us en mass is because they're swallowing their distaste for all we stand for while we fight the Sunni "insurgents" and equip and train Shiite fighters. If we step out of line they'll drive us out in a few weeks. Ed