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Politics : Actual left/right wing discussion -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Ilaine who wrote (1196)9/19/2006 7:37:44 AM
From: Tom Clarke  Respond to of 10087
 
Islamic scholars engaging in reasoned dialogue.




To: Ilaine who wrote (1196)9/19/2006 11:03:25 AM
From: one_less  Respond to of 10087
 
Sorry but that just sounds like a confused rant from someone who is very conflicted about their rational for forming an anti all Muslims position. The collection of posts you have offered in sum total amount to one thing: you personally want nothing to do with any, and you are compulsively gathering all the evidence possible, outside of having anything to do with Muslims, especially getting to know any Muslims, to prove that they are evil people. You can be as offended as you want, but no matter how you choose to walk that duck, it is probably the clearest display of bigotry I have ever seen in my life. People can use (interpret) religious text to make any kind of point they want ... and you certainly have made your point.

You are standing behind the Pope who is your religious representative and authority, but going off to find Quran texts to support your bigotry against all Muslims (which the Pope wouldn't approve of), then switching in and out of loyalty to all groupings, religious or otherwise, who could be thought to agree with you that all muslims are your enemy, then references to believing in the power of God, and mystical insight on how God takes sides, but not really.

Not even with God on your side, and God is not on your side.

Well at least your closing comment was sensible and one that I can completely agree with although it is something of a sound bite that can be taken good ways or wrong. As there are lots of forms of persuasion that I don't support ... torture for example.

"Stick with persuasion. Persuasion and the use of reason is God's will."

If you hope to persuade others that all Muslims are evil, I doubt you will will make any progress on that goal. I do figure your approach has some potential at inciting mob hatred, and the sort of conduct that goes along with that however. I'd wish you luck but you'd know I wasn't sincere about it.

"Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Jains, Animists, Bahai, Jews, Pagans, and non-believers will always stick together against Muslims ... Ok, got it. You have everybody in the world agreeing with you to hate muslims ... because uhhhh, you said it is true. The fact is there is a lot of hate in the world and it doesn't take much to pick a target and rally consent.

Rah rah your side, woopiiii. However, I'm not persuaded to hate anyone or everyone based on your argument and it doesn't matter if I am last human being on Earth that would not support that kind of biggoted rhetoric, I will stand alone if need be.

Peace,
gem



To: Ilaine who wrote (1196)9/19/2006 11:22:56 AM
From: one_less  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 10087
 
Muslims are just people CB. There are mountains of information, educational materials, and resources that support people who seek an understanding of that. If you prefer to objectify people by demonizing them in your own mind, I am certain you can justify that for yourself and like minded others, I am not one.

History teaches us that religion is a powerful tool that can be used for good purposes as well as destructive purposes. The responsibility for how religion is used lies in the hands of the human being using the religion, not in the scripture itself. Guns don't kill people, people kill people with guns. Religions don't hurt people, people hurt people with religions.

Here is an example of one straw from the hundreds of hay fields. Not that it will mean much to you but here ya go anyway. This is pretty common rhetoric in the mainstream and of course mixes with some of the more radicalized views from other perspectives.

Published: 08/08/2003 12:00 AM (UAE)

Islam and its policy of tolerance
By Prof. John Esposito


As "People of the Book", Jews and Christians were regarded as protected people (dhimmi), who were permitted to retain and practice their religions, be led by their own religious leaders, and be guided by their own religious laws and customs. For this protection, they paid a poll or head tax (jizya).

The policies of some Muslim countries, conflicts between Muslims and Christians; the actions of Islamic extremists groups, and the call by Osama bin Laden to kill Jews and Christians (and indeed Muslims who did not agree with him) have led many to ask whether Islam has any notion of religious pluralism and tolerance.

Is Islam intolerant of other religions?

The Holy Quran clearly and strongly states that "there is to be no compulsion in religion" (2:256), and that God has created not one but many nations and peoples. Many passages underscore the diversity of humankind. The Holy Quran teaches that God deliberately created a world of diversity (49:13): "O humankind, We have created you male and female and made you nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another."

Muslims, like Christians and Jews before them, believe that they have been called to a special covenant relationship with God, constituting a community of believers intended to serve as an example to other nations (2:143) in establishing a just social order (3:110).

Moreover, Muslims regard Jews and Christians as "People of the Book," people who have also received a revelation and a scripture from God (the Torah for Jews and the Gospels for Christians).

The Holy Quran and Islam recognise that followers of the three great Abrahamic religions, the children of Abraham, share a common belief in the one God, in biblical prophets such as Moses and Jesus, in human accountability, and in a Final Judgment followed by eternal reward or punishment.

All share the common hope and promise of eternal reward: "Surely the believers and the Jews, Christians and Sabians [Middle East groups traditionally recognised by Islam as having a monotheistic orientation], whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord and will neither have fear nor regret" (2:62).

Historically, while the early expansion and conquests spread Islamic rule, Muslims did not try to impose their religion on others or force them to convert.

As "People of the Book", Jews and Christians were regarded as protected people (dhimmi), who were permitted to retain and practice their religions, be led by their own religious leaders, and be guided by their own religious laws and customs.

For this protection, they paid a poll or head tax (jizya). While by modern standards this treatment amounted to second-class citizenship, in pre-modern times, it was very advanced. No such tolerance existed in Christendom, where Jews, Muslims, and other Christians (those who did not accept the authority of the pope) were subjected to forced conversion, persecution, or expulsion.

Although the Islamic ideal was not followed everywhere and at all times, it existed and flourished in many contexts.

In recent years, religious intolerance has become a major issue in self-styled Islamic governments in Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran, and Sudan, as well as in the actions of religious extremist organisations from Egypt's Islamic Jihad to Osama bin Laden and Al Qaida who have been intolerant towards not only non-Muslims but also other Muslims who do not accept their version of "true Islam".

The situation is exacerbated in some countries where Muslims have clashed with Christians, Hindus and Jews. These confrontations have sometimes been initiated by the Muslim community and at other times by others. In some cases it becomes difficult to distinguish whether conflicts are driven primarily by politics and economics or by religion.

Finally, more secular governments in Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, Syria, and elsewhere have often proven to be intolerant of mainstream Islamic organisations or parties that offer an alternative vision of society or are critical of government policies.

From Egypt to Indonesia and Europe to America, many Muslims today work to re-examine their faith in the light of the changing realities of their societies and their lives, developing new approaches to diversity and pluralism.

Like Jews and Christians before them, they seek to reinterpret the sources of their faith to produce new religious understandings that speak to religious pluralism in the modern world.

The need to redefine traditional notions of pluralism and tolerance is driven by the fact that in countries such as Egypt, Lebanon, Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Malaysia, and Indonesia, Muslims live in multireligious societies, and also by new demographic realities.

Never before have so many Muslim minority communities existed across the world, in particular in America and Europe. The spectre of living as a permanent minority community in non-Muslim countries has heightened the need to address and redefine questions of pluralism and tolerance.

Like Roman Catholicism in the 1960s, whose official acceptance of pluralism at the Second Vatican Council was strongly influenced by American Catholics' experience as a minority, Muslim communities in America and Europe are now struggling with their questions of identity and assimilation.

Reformers emphasise that diversity and pluralism are integral to the message of the Holy Quran, which teaches that God created a world composed of different nations, ethnicities, tribes, and languages: "To each of you We have given a law and a way and a pattern of life. If God had pleased.

He could surely have made you one people [professing one faith]. But He wished to try and test you by that which He gave you. So try to excel in good deeds. To Him will you all return in the end, when He will tell you how you differed (5:48)." Many point to the example of the Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) and his community at Medina. The Constitution of Medina accepted the co-existence of Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) discussed and debated with, and granted freedom of religious thought and practice to, the Jews and Christians, setting a precedent for peaceful and co-operative interreligious relations.

Many challenge the exclusivist religious claims and intolerance of Islamic groups who believe that they alone possess the "true" interpretation of Islam and attempt to impose it on other Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

In many ways, Islam today is at a crossroads as Muslims, mainstream and extremist, conservative and progressive, struggle to balance the affirmation of the truth of their faith with the cultivation of a pluralism and tolerance rooted in mutual respect and understanding.

Religious conflict and persecution, historically and today, exist across the religious spectrum: Hindu fundamentalists have clashed with Muslims, Christians, and Sikhs in India, Serbs with Bosnians and Kosovars, Jews with Palestinian Muslims and Christians, Tamil (Hindu) with Sinhalese (Buddhist) in Sri Lanka, Christians with Muslims in Lebanon, Catholics with Protestants in Northern Ireland.

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