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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: Bilow who wrote (208432)11/15/2006 12:30:48 AM
From: geode00  Read Replies (3) | Respond to of 281500
 
1. It's pure crappola to say that Dems do not have a plan to win in Iraq. NO ONE has a plan to WIN in Iraq. There's not even a vision of what WINNING in Iraq would look like. No Iraqi, no American, no Brit, no Turk, no Kurd, no Saudi, NO ONE has a plan to WIN in Iraq.

Iraq is purely a REPUBLICAN FAILURE from here to eternity it will always be a REPUBLICAN KILLING FIELD. It was based on Republican lies and Republican corruption and Republican incompetence.

Trying to share or affix blame to anyone or any party other than the Republicans in power is disgusting.

2. Republicans are a minority party as they have been for years. They lied, divided, scammed, stole and corrupted their way into power. Dems can hold onto their power in Congress if they can nip whatever problems they have with Murtha et al in the bud NOW.

They need to do this NOW. Unlike Republicans, they can recognize this NOW and not keep the smarmy likes of Rumsfeld, Cheney, Delay, Abramoff, West, Safavian, Lay, Bush-Bush & Bush around to lie, cheat, steal and be incompetent.

3. No one needs Republicans. No one needs that kind of corruption at City Hall. There needs to be a new party that doesn't have the stench of the current Republican party.



To: Bilow who wrote (208432)11/15/2006 1:07:08 AM
From: stockman_scott  Respond to of 281500
 
Hendrik Hertzberg, of The New Yorker, comments on "the Thumping"...

newyorker.com

by Hendrik Hertzberg
Issue of 2006-11-20
Posted 2006-11-13

Interviewing President Bush aboard Air Force One a few days before his second inauguration, a Washington Post reporter noted that American forces in Iraq had neither been welcomed as liberators nor found any of the promised weapons of mass destruction. “The postwar process hasn’t gone as well as some had hoped,” the reporter ventured. “Why hasn’t anyone been held accountable, either through firings or demotions, for what some people see as mistakes or misjudgments?” The President’s reply—as iconically Bushian as “Bring ’em on”—came to mind last Tuesday night as the big blue waves started rolling in. “Well,” he said back then, “we had an accountability moment, and that’s called the 2004 election.”

Actually, it was more like an impunity moment. “Let me put it to you this way,” Bush had said the day after John Kerry’s concession. “I earned capital in the campaign—political capital—and now I intend to spend it.” And spend it he did. Whatever he had left over after he blew a wad trying to turn Social Security into a bonanza for the financial-services industry was squandered on an unending skein of assurances that the war in Iraq was going fine. By last week, the coffers were empty, and not even the hurried-up sentencing of Saddam Hussein to be hanged by the neck until dead could refill them. The accountability moment had arrived at last.

Americans have had enough, and their disgust with the Administration and its congressional enablers turned out to be so powerful that even the battered, rusty, sound-bit, TV-spotted, Die-bolded old seismograph of an American midterm election was able to register it. Thanks to the computer-aided gerrymandering that is the only truly modern feature of our electoral machinery, the number of seats that changed hands was not particularly high by historical standards. Voters—actual people—are a truer measure of the swing’s magnitude. In 2000, the last time this year’s thirty-three Senate seats were up for grabs, the popular-vote totals in those races, like the popular-vote totals for President, were essentially a tie. Democrats got forty-eight per cent of the vote, Republicans slightly more than forty-seven per cent. This time, in those same thirty-three states, Democrats got fifty-five per cent of the vote, Republicans not quite forty-three per cent. In raw numbers, the national Democratic plurality in the 2000 senatorial races was the same as Al Gore’s: around half a million. This time, despite the inevitably smaller off-year turnout and the fact that there were Senate races in only two-thirds of the states, it was more than seven million.

This election was a crushing rebuke to Bush and his party. The rest is interpretation. Nearly everyone agreed that public anger about the Iraq catastrophe was paramount. To the surprise of much of the political class, exit polls suggested that corruption was almost as formidable a factor, especially among Independents and disaffected Republicans. On the right, some commentators complained that the G.O.P.’s problem was that it hadn’t been conservative enough: too much spending, too much nation-building, too much foot-dragging on abortion and the like. Others took comfort in the hypothesis that, because a number of Tuesday’s new faces are Democrats of a (relatively) conservative stripe, the election was actually a victory for the ideology, if not the party, of George W. Bush. In a blog post titled “All’s Well on the Conservative Front,” Lawrence Kudlow, of National Review, pointed to the “conservative Blue Dog Dems who won a whole bunch of seats” as proof that “Republicans may have lost—but the conservative ascendancy is still alive and well.”

Maybe. Or maybe those Blue Dogs won’t hunt. In truth, the great majority of Capitol Hill’s new Democrats will be what used to be called liberals, and in every case Tuesday’s Republican losers were more conservative than the Democrats who beat them. Moreover, the fate of ballot initiatives around the country suggests that, on balance, the conservative tide may be ebbing. In six states, mostly out West, proposals to raise the minimum wage won easily. Yes, seven ballot measures banning same-sex marriage passed, albeit by smaller margins than has been the pattern; but one, in Arizona, was defeated—the first time that has happened anywhere. Missourians voted to support embryonic-stem-cell research. Californians and Oregonians rejected proposals to require parental notification for young women seeking abortions, and the voters of South Dakota overturned a law, passed by the state legislature and signed by the governor eight months ago, that forbade abortion, including in cases of rape or incest, except when absolutely necessary to save the mother’s life. Rick Santorum, the Senate’s most energetic social conservative, went down to overwhelming defeat—man on dog won’t hunt, either, apparently.

A more persuasive analysis than the all’s-well theory holds that Tuesday’s debacle reveals the limitations of the “mobilize the base” strategy, which Karl Rove devised on behalf of his boss, and which has required the Republican Party to entrust itself entirely to a hard core of taxophobes, Christianists, and dittoheads. Rove’s strategy, this analysis suggests, seemed to work only in 2000 (when Bush came in second at the ballot box) and in 2002 and 2004 (when its weaknesses were masked by fear of terrorism). Traditionally, America’s two big political parties have been loose coalitions, one center-left and one center-right. Rove transformed the Republicans into something resembling a European-style parliamentary party of the right, politically disciplined and ideologically uniform. This year, in response, many on the center-right acted like Europeans, too: they voted not the man (or woman) but the party (Democratic). That sealed the fate of Rhode Island’s popular senator Lincoln Chafee, among other remnants of moderate Republicanism. For the center part of the center-right, there was nowhere to go except to the center part of the center-left.

The day after the election, at a press conference in the East Room of the White House, the curtain rose on Act III of “Oedipus Bush.” On one level, the current President Bush was all crisp decisiveness as he announced the replacement of his Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, with Robert Gates, a former C.I.A. director and the president of Texas A. & M. University. Below the surface, but only a little below, something altogether more unsettling was going on. Rumsfeld was one of the first President Bush’s least favorite people; Gates is one of his most trusted confidants. He is also an active member of the Iraq Study Group, which is headed by another of the father’s intimates, James Baker. The group’s report, expected in the New Year, will offer the outlines of a different course in Iraq—an offer the President may be unable to refuse. At the Pentagon, Rumsfeld yields to Gates; in the Oval Office, adolescent rebellion gives way to sullen acquiescence.

Bush said some of the right things at his press conference, but he chose his words carelessly. He congratulated the “Democrat leaders” and promised bipartisanship—a goal he is unlikely to advance by referring to his hoped-for new partners by a name calculated solely to annoy them. Impressions are inherently subjective, of course; but he looked like a man who at that moment would much prefer to be commissioner of baseball, the job he longed for in 1993, before falling back on running for governor of Texas. It has been obvious for some time that, as President of the United States, George W. Bush is in very far over his head. He does not know how to use power wisely. He will now have a Democratic Congress to restrain him, and, perhaps, to protect him—and us—from his unfettered impulses. This may not be the Thanksgiving he was looking forward to, but the rest of us have reason to be grateful.



To: Bilow who wrote (208432)11/15/2006 8:46:45 AM
From: Sam  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 281500
 
Americans, by a 2 to 1 margin, think that the Democrats do not have a plan to win in Iraq. What will they think in 2008? I don't think that the "2" will have to change their mind, but the "1" may learn something.

Well duh--do you "have a plan to win in Iraq"? You of all people ought to know that no one has a plan to actually win in Iraq. The question is, will American voters simply forgive Republicans for leading us into this unwinnable war, or will they hold Democrats equally accountable, since so many of them voted "for the war" in 2002, as Republicans will be fond of saying in '08, generously sharing a responsibility that they would not have made as clear had the war turned out differently.

The American people blame Bush for the war more than the Republican party. With Bush gone, voters will return to voting Republican.

Carl, polls have consistently shown that more people are on the side of Democrats on issue after issue--except for terrorism. And that may change if the Democrats actually get an intelligent and market savvy consultant to ram into public consciousness the idea which you yourself agree with that the Bush foreign policy has been a complete disaster and has NOT made us or the world in general safer, but far more dangerous.

The best way to make a 2-party democracy corrupt is for one party to keep winning elections for more than a decade.

I agree 100% with you there. Take a look at Machiavelli's Discourses, book 3, chapter 1, where he explicitly says the same thing (even the 10 year time frame--"10 years or so", I think he says). And recommends a hanging of some public figure every ten years ago as a way of keeping the "powerful" and the ambitious in check.

Power corrupts. Having a two party system reduces that corruption. In a world peopled by humans who are inherently inclined towards corruption, the two party democracy is as good as it gets.

Actually, I think a 5 party system would be better, with 2 large and 3 smaller parties. And with the parties having some distinctive characteristics to set them off from one another, ideologically or economically or both. That would force coalitions, genuine deliberations between opposing points of view, and more sensible compromises. Would also rid any party of the delusion that they might build a "permanent" majority. That should be impossible, and it is essential that no one believe that it might be possible.

But more on that some other time, I gotta go. BTW, I finally got around to reading Chernow's biography of Hamilton. Liked it a lot. Our past disagreement was over whether he was a Democrat or a Republican--I still think he was more of a Democrat than a Republican, but that too will have to wait. (Unless you don't mean the party but the generic political system--in that case, we can agree).