Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Bilow who wrote (209161)	11/26/2006 1:06:23 AM
From: bentway	Respond to of 281500

I think the only thing that keeps it from being an all out civil war with armies of men fighting each other is our presence, air power and sheer firepower. And that's no reason to stay. It compares very well with the Lebanese civil war. en.wikipedia.org Best to get out of the way..

To: Bilow who wrote (209161)	11/26/2006 8:00:29 AM
From: sylvester80	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

I don't think the U.S. civil war had a 3rd party "trying" to control the weapon supply and having fast access on both sides of the fence with unmatched air power and electronic surveillance? So IMO it is not very simple to compare the U.S. civil war casualties with the Iraqi casualties. IMO, Iraq is already in a full blown civil war.

To: Bilow who wrote (209161)	11/26/2006 8:07:28 AM
From: jttmab	Respond to of 281500

You're attempting to split hairs when there are no hairs to split. civil war One entry found for civil war. Main Entry: civil war Function: noun : a war between opposing groups of citizens of the same country Main Entry: 1war Pronunciation: 'wor Function: noun Usage: often attributive Etymology: Middle English werre, from Anglo-French werre, guerre, of Germanic origin; akin to Old High German werra strife; akin to Old High German werran to confuse 1 a (1) : a state of usually open and declared armed hostile conflict between states or nations (2) : a period of such armed conflict (3) : STATE OF WAR b : the art or science of warfare c (1) obsolete : weapons and equipment for war (2) archaic : soldiers armed and equipped for war 2 a : a state of hostility, conflict, or antagonism Try carrying your metric of body count to "war". There is/was no Iraq War because the daily body count didn't exceed 400? jttmab

To: Bilow who wrote (209161)	11/26/2006 8:18:46 AM
From: sylvester80	Respond to of 281500

NEWS: Iraq insurgency now financially self-sustaining-NYT 25 Nov 2006 21:42:51 GMT Source: Reuters Iraq in turmoil alertnet.org NEW YORK, Nov 25 (Reuters) - The Iraq insurgency has become financially self-sustaining, raising tens of millions of dollars a year from oil smuggling, kidnapping, counterfeiting, corrupt charities and other crimes, The New York Times reported in Sunday editions. According to a classified United States government report, a copy of which was obtained by the newspaper, groups responsible for many of the insurgent and terrorist attacks are raising an estimated $70 million to $200 million a year from illegal activities. Some $25 million to $100 million of the total comes from oil smuggling and other criminal activity involving the state-owned oil industry aided by "corrupt and complicit" Iraqi officials, the Times said, citing the report. As much as $36 million a year comes from ransoms paid over hundreds of kidnappings. Unnamed foreign governments -- identified in the past by senior U.S. officials as including France and Italy -- paid kidnappers $30 million in ransom last year alone, the report said. The Times also quoted the report as saying: "If recent revenue and expense estimates are correct terrorist and insurgent groups in Iraq may have surplus funds with which to support other terrorist organizations outside of Iraq." The report, completed in June, was provided to the newspaper by U.S. officials in Iraq who told the Times they had done so in hopes that the findings could improve U.S. understanding of the challenges faced in Iraq. According to the Times, the report holds out little hope that much can be done any time soon to stem the flow of funds to insurgents, acknowledging how little U.S. authorities in Iraq know about crucial aspects of insurgent operations. And it paints a bleak picture of the Iraqi government's ability, or willingness, to take the necessary measures to contain the insurgency's financing, the Times said. Some terrorism experts outside the government who were given an outline of the report by the Times criticized it for a lack of precision and a reliance on speculation, the newspaper noted. TERRORIST HAVEN The report was compiled by an interagency working group that is investigating the financing of militant groups in Iraq. A Bush administration official confirmed the group's existence and said it is studying how money was moved into and around the country, the Times said. The official said the group, led by the National Security Council, drew its members from the CIA, the FBI, the Defense Intelligence Agency, the State Department, the Treasury Department, and the United States Army's Central Command, which oversees the war in Iraq. The group is led by Juan Zarate, deputy national security adviser for combating terrorism. The report also concluded that the Iraqi insurgency no longer depends on the sums, in excess of $1 billion, that Saddam Hussein and his associates seized as his government collapsed. The possibility that Iraq-based terrorist groups could finance attacks outside Iraq appeared to echo Bush administration assertions that prevailing in the war is essential to preventing Iraq from becoming a terrorist haven as Afghanistan became under the Taliban, the Times said, adding that that suggestion was one of many aspects of the report that drew criticism from Western terrorism and counterinsurgency experts working outside the government. According to the Times, the report also said that U.S. efforts to follow the insurgency financing trails have been hampered by a weak Iraqi government and its new intelligence agencies; a lack of communication between U.S. agencies and between the Americans and the Iraqis; and the nature of the insurgent economy itself, chiefly driven by manual money transfers rather than more easily traceable means.

To: Bilow who wrote (209161)	11/26/2006 11:24:41 AM
From: Dennis O'Bell	Respond to of 281500

Well, it's really not quite a civil war yet. If it gets there, it'll be pretty obvious. The Algerian civil war a decade ago cost between 150K and 200K lives. The Iraq civilian death toll is now estimated at about 50K, though you'll see wild claims of 10X that. en.wikipedia.org iraqbodycount.org So I guess the armchair experts here in the US can go on claiming that it's "not a civil war" for a while longer. Maybe GOP cluster f*ckup would be a better word for it. They're the ones wholly responsible for this mess.