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Politics : Foreign Policy Discussion Thread -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Ilaine who wrote (7931)	12/26/2006 5:10:22 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 15987

Jingoism, xenophobia, patriotism, nationalism - all associated with megalomania. I'm all for defined national borders, tradable citizenship and controlling who and what comes in, but the concept of us versus the rest turns to atavistic genocidal tribalism all too easily. While in the midst of murderous religious war against Islamic Jihad, it's not necessarily easy to run a habeas corpus system, but the idea of holding people prisoner permanently without some public review of the process is not good. Megalomania is a reasonable accusation against King George II, who sleeps with fear of assassination continuously, just like Saddam. In 1975, we visited Washington and could go right up to the White House and if I remember rightly, enter it, but we decided not to [if I remember rightly]. Now it's a hardened bunker. In early 1974 we could walk up to 10 Downing Street, but that ended pretty soon with the IRA bombings. Western democracies are free in most respects compared with places like Iraq [before the conflict, let alone now], but in absolute terms, they are absurdly repressive with citizens as nothing but state serfs. Mere chattels of the state. It amazes me how little traction an idea such as tradable citizenship can get. Libertarianism is considered a wacky, extremist idea. People LIKE being told what to do. They LIKE being state serfs. They vote every election for half their efforts being confiscated by the state for make benefit the glorious supporters of whoever is in power and those in power. I think King George II goes on about freedom so much because he doesn't have it himself, and never really has, other than in the megalomaniac 500lb gorilla sense. He can't wander around a supermarket. In some respects it feels more free in China. One can decide to ride a bicycle without having somebody prosecuting me for choosing not to wear a helmet. The suffocatocracy of NZ is making more and more illegal and controlled. I don't think they have a limit on how many rules they'd impose. We haven't been allowed double happies [a little cracker] for years and now they want to ban fireworks altogether - can't be too safe you know. We can go and watch a public display as far as they are concerned. Altering one's vegetation is a crime too. Everything is forbidden unless it's specifically permitted. Adolf was voted into power. People like to refer to Nazis and Adolf as being the evil-doers, but in fact it was Germans in general. One guy can't do anything. There is more than a hint of Teutonic "efficiency" in the USA. Plenty of Germans have migrated to the USA. It is a peculiar place with a fairly repressive character, with a paradoxical extreme freedom in other respects. There is NO shortage of megalomania around the world. It is just expressed in different ways and restricted to a greater or lesser extent. Democracy usually avoids the worst of it. Sort of. Mqurice PS: Now I'll have to read Lane3 [new to me]. I think any religion and freedom are incompatible. Maybe Buddhists don't repress too much but when I visited a temple here with a friend, it had all the trappings of "do it like this" ritual. Christians, these days, aren't so much into stonings to death, inquisitions, burnings at the stake, heresy trials. But they have a bloke nailed up, to show what happens to you if you oppose the state, including the "Christian" USA run by a "Christian".

To: Ilaine who wrote (7931)	12/27/2006 11:32:16 AM
From: Sam	Respond to of 15987

Power is, no doubt, exhilarating, but how can one be free, knowing that you can't even sleep at night without everybody around you wishing to murder you in your sleep so they can have your job? Very old question. Here is a dialogue from Xenophon (a student of Socrates and contemporary of Plato, who also wrote many dialogues, some about Socrates--Xenophon, that is, everyone knows about Plato) between a tyrant named Hiero and a philosopher named Simonides which asks the exact same question, as well as others, as it explores the nature of tyranny and political rule. The dialogue itself is very brief. The book also has commentary and debate by Leo Strauss (OK, the guy has a bad name these days, but he really was a brilliant guy) and Alexandre Kojeve, a Hegelian philosopher opponent of Strauss's--though they had a deep mutual respect for each other. amazon.com