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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: one_less who wrote (216004)	2/2/2007 5:18:49 PM
From: DMaA	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

I bet 95% of Americans today would say we get our liberty FROM the Constitution, or just the government. If you'd asked people the year I was born 95% would have said from God.

To: one_less who wrote (216004)	2/3/2007 1:12:25 PM
From: cnyndwllr	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 281500

Rough, you say, based on your concept of man's "natural right" to freedom, that in Iraq America should "Oppose tyrannous groups (insurgencies) in support of greater liberty and justice for all." Let's take a look at that. Freedom belongs to those who value it enough to fight and die for it, or at least sacrifice something of real value for it. It must be taken, and, once taken, it must be jealously guarded guarded from power. And it certainly can't be given by the people of one culture to the people of another through force of arms. But, for the sake of argument, let's assume we somehow have the awesome power to "create a free and democratic Iraq." That rings some bells, doesn't it? Who do we "free?" Do we "free" the majority Shiites to live the way they want even if that means far less freedom for the Sunnis to live the way they want? You do understand that in that culture it is a tradeoff, don't you? Think about it. When you're dealing with intolerant, hateful and oppressive societies with substantial minorities, more power in one camp can result in terrible oppression in another. The fact is that in Iraq the struggle that best qualifies as a struggle to be free is the one you want America to quash with force of arms and in the name of freedom; the struggle of the THE SUNNI INSURGENTS. The Sunnis are fighting for their survival as a subculture, a religion and a sect. You may not understand that but they certainly do, and the only effective means of opposition is armed opposition to a Shiite majority that has proven itself intolerant, oppressive and brutal. Iraq isn't ready for "freedom" in the sense of "democracy." The test of true individual freedom in a democratic government requires that the majority understands that the freedom to live the way you want requires allowing others the right to live their own values. Shiites haven't met that test with respect to the Sunnis, nor have the Sunnis met that test with respect to the Shiites, nor will they anytime soon. (Although I suspect I'd much rather live under Sunni rule than Shiite rule.) The unwillingness to allow others that right is the Achilles heel of many religious conservatives who say they want freedom when what they really want is the right to legislate "family values," including American religious conservatives. And what is it that motivates a substantial majority of Sunni AND Shiite to APPROVE of the killing of American troops? Do you think it might have something to do with what freedom means, to them, not to you? As with all things involving human interaction, freedom is a multifaceted shades of gray, chess game concept, not a slogan. I wish it was more simple but it isn't. Ed