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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Elroy who wrote (218606)	2/15/2007 10:55:28 AM
From: epicure	Respond to of 281500

In the great scheme of things, it doesn't seem like one of the greater wrongs on the planet (Saudi women being prevented from driving). You are free, of course, to concentrate on it. Frankly I think I have other priorities- already stated in my previous post.

To: Elroy who wrote (218606)	2/15/2007 11:03:54 AM
From: SARMAN	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

Elroy, driving, I believe in North America, is privilege not a right. You are harping on women not being able to drive in Saudi, yet you fail to mention that women in Saudi can attain the highest education, and are engineers, doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc. And frankly, I do not want to be driving in Saudi just because the way the Saudis drive.

To: Elroy who wrote (218606)	2/15/2007 11:11:08 AM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Hey Elroy, I fall somewhere between you and iktomy on the ideology of rights. I do believe rights are fundamentally derived from our nature and then distinguished and protected as legal rights by society. For the sake of common understanding we can start as Jefferson did by terming those things which should be obvious to our natures as 'Self Evident.' I personally start with the right to pursue well being and the responsibility to respect, encourage, support the well being of others. This is a pretty universal agreement among human beings that spans time and circumstance but since we are all socialized and educated to some extent, there is no way to 'prove' it exists a priori as part of the human condition. I don't see the right to drive as automatically falling under this fundamental nature of rightness, however I can see the ping against what is normal and available for some ought to be normal and available to similar others. I have spoken to Saudis about this and their view of the benefits to men and women that afford equal status is quite different than it is in our culture, and there are some definite trade offs. For example it would be highly unusual to find a Saudi woman complaining about sexual harassment, or any kind of poor treatment from men except perhaps spouse abuse in some cases, which of course we have here as well. I actually think it is rare there, mostly do to the strong tribal culture along with its in marriage tendencies. The Saudi women have much to boast about with regards to receiving a special power and status within the home, which is becoming less common here. There are lots of other trade offs and the simple conclusion that American women have it great because of the freedom to drive while the Saudi women are hopelessly oppressed do to lack of this freedom is not born out in conversations with men and women from that culture. I'd personally like to see them get that changed but don't see the problem as Earth shaking.