Silicon Investor (SI) -- The First Internet Community

STOCKTALK

We've detected that you're using an ad content blocking browser plug-in or feature. Ads provide a critical source of revenue to the continued operation of Silicon Investor. We ask that you disable ad blocking while on Silicon Investor in the best interests of our community. If you are not using an ad blocker but are still receiving this message, make sure your browser's tracking protection is set to the 'standard' level.

Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Elroy who wrote (219807)	2/20/2007 3:40:13 PM
From: epicure	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

No. I don't think that's true. The Jewish community is not monolithic. If you've seen any programs or movies about the ultraorthodox communities you know that "converting" in to one of those communities would be just about impossible. It's like trying to convert in to an Amish community. It's such a different, extreme, way of life, that to be successful you really have to be born in to it. So yes, an outsider will always be viewed with a little suspicion in extreme commnuities, because they are different. That doesn't mean you can't convert. You can. My brother in law is married to a Jewish woman and he considered converting. And he would have been accepted by the family, but they're a family of very liberal reform Jews. See what I mean? Subjectivity DOES enter in to it, because the communities in which different "strengths" of Jewish people live and worship are different. I don't think it's racist to recognize the subjectivity that will be present in these different communities when they look assess and integrate (or do not integrate) a convert. This is the same subjctivity that is present in Muslim communities. Some are rabid, some aren't. That's the way it is with any religion, right?

To: Elroy who wrote (219807)	2/20/2007 3:50:42 PM
From: Wharf Rat	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

"And if you can have converts, Jews are not an ethnic group." Too bad Hitler didn't think that way. One Jewish grandparent, and off to da camps. II. The Genetically Unacceptable A. The Jews Why were the Jewish people genetically unacceptable to the Nazis? The answer lies in the way the Third Reich viewed the Jews. Much of this has been discussed in other sections.(See "Judenrein") While many people throughout history have seen and defined the Jews as both a race and religion, the Nazis went to great links to define the Jews first as a race, with complex racial definitions R and secondarily as a religious and political threat.p The Nazis wanted to rid Europe of the Jews not just because of their religion and politics, but because they believed that the Jews were the modern day descendants of the Hebrews, a group they considered the "root-race". ( See Root Race Theory A Superior or Master Race would emerge and take over Europe and then the World when this 'root race' was eradicated, ushering in a Utopian period populated by a genetically superior people. That people, according to the belief of the Nazis was the Aryan Race, with strong Nordic characteristics, white, with blue and light-colored eyes and light-colored hair, with strong physiques. The upper-most decision makers believed that by eliminating the Jewish bloodlines of Europe and the other bloodlines of 'less-desireable' peoples, that within a generation or two, this perfect Aryan Race would emerge, and usher in the Third Millenium, the Third Reign, which Hitler would rule. Himmler even believed he was the re-carnation of Heinrich I, who reigned earlier in history in a similar matter. The plan to make Europe "Jew-free" Judenfrei or Judenrein was from the beginning: excuses and apologetics having to do with 'relocating' the Jews for economic reasons covered the true motivation of the upper echelon of the Third Reich. The aim was to annihilate even the remnant of Jewish blood (we would now say DNA) from the peoples of Europe. shoaheducation.com

To: Elroy who wrote (219807)	2/20/2007 5:41:40 PM
From: Rambi	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

It isn't as simple as you are trying to make it. Because there are elements of ethnicity, religion and culture involved that aren't as distinct as in Western culture, there exists a difficult balance. It isn't either-or. "Jewishness disrupts the very categories of identity, because it is not national, not genealogical, not religious, but all of these, in dialectical tension." (Daniel Boyarin) My son has been dating a Jewish woman for over two years, and we became interested in what this might mean for them and their children. Conversion is not simple. CHristians can convert easily by accepting Jesus, but becoming a Jew involves a great deal of formal study. Some conversions aren't accepted by other branches of Judaism. It is definitely not just a matter of saying, I believe. As the Jewish identity shares some of the characteristics of an ethnicity and a religion, the definitions of a Jew may vary, depending on whether a religious, sociological, or ethnic approach to identity is used. Throughout the Jewish history, Jews have been characterized in many different lights. According to most definitions, a Jew is either born into the Jewish people, or becomes one through religious conversion. The debate centers around some of the following questions: Mixed parentage debate - tries to identify when people with mixed parentage should be considered Jewish, and when they should not be. Conversion debate - centers around the process of religious conversion in an attempt to specify which conversions to Judaism should be considered valid, and which should not. Life circumstances debate - focuses on whether people's actions (such as conversion to a different religion) or circumstances in their lives (such as being unaware of Jewish parentage) affect their status as a Jew. According to Halakha (Jewish law), only a convert or a child born to a Jewish mother is counted as Jewish. A child with a Jewish father and a non-Jewish mother is considered a non-Jew. Although an infant conversion might be contemplated in some circumstances (such as in the case of adopted children or children whose parents convert), children who convert would typically be asked if they want to remain Jewish after reaching religious adulthood, which is 12 years old for a girl, 13 for a boy. This standard is applied within Conservative and Orthodox Judaism, which accept Halakha as normative (although differing in their interpretations). Other Jewish denominations, which do not accept Halakha (Jewish law) as normative, have adopted different standards. American Reform Judaism and British Liberal Judaism accept the child of one Jewish parent (father or mother) as Jewish if the parents raise the child as a Jew by Progressive standards. All mainstream forms of Judaism today are open to sincere converts. Though there is also controversy surrounding conversion to Judaism, all religious movements accept converts converted by their denominations fully as Jews.<

To: Elroy who wrote (219807)	2/21/2007 1:59:08 AM
From: Nadine Carroll	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 281500

You can't have it both ways - one can either convert to Judaeism, or not. And if you can have converts, Jews are not an ethnic group. That's completely muddle-headed. There is no contradiction involved because Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity. You can convert to the religion and you can learn the rituals, but it is not so easy to change your basic ethnicity from whatever you were to Jewish. There is a whole outlook on the world involved. Let's look at a different conversion. Suppose a white American woman married a Japanese man from a traditional family. She learns Japanese, she learns the customs and rituals of the various seasons, she learns how to fit in, and her in-laws accept her. Is it racist of them to observe that she can never truly become Japanese?