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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: cnyndwllr who wrote (221783)2/28/2007 3:52:03 PM
From: Don Hurst  Respond to of 281500
 
Ed, far too much for Elroy...he can only provide so many "guesses" per day.



To: cnyndwllr who wrote (221783)2/28/2007 8:56:37 PM
From: Nadine Carroll  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 281500
 
Don't you think that when a nation decides to play God and use its military might to force "regime change," it has SOME responsibility to look ahead and understand the "something in Iraq society" that might actually cause things to end up exponentially worse than before?



Nobody knew. Not even the supposed experts. Saddam ran a completely opaque police state. The CIA had no people on the ground. The same people who are bitching now, like Anthony Cordesman, were writing before the war that Iraq was a cohesive country that had existing for 80 years and would hold together. Look it up.



For instance, the State Department career diplomats and Iraq experts were warning that removing Saddam would create chaos and might lead to civil war.


Bwwaaahhhaaahhhaa! yes, I'm sure they warned of 35 other catastrophes that never came to pass as well. Our State Dept is just GREAT at 20/20 hindsight!



To: cnyndwllr who wrote (221783)3/1/2007 1:11:18 AM
From: Elroy  Respond to of 281500
 
Don't you think that when a nation decides to play God and use its military might to force "regime change," it has SOME responsibility to look ahead and understand the "something in Iraq society" that might actually cause things to end up exponentially worse than before?

Sure, the nation has some responsibility to anticipate the possible affect of its actions.

There might have been some clues too, don't you think?

For instance, the State Department career diplomats and Iraq experts were warning that removing Saddam would create chaos and might lead to civil war.

For instance, a decade earlier the Sunni majority had gunned down Shiites wholesale using choppers and machine guns.

For instance even earlier the Sunni and Shiites had cooperated in gassing the Kurds.

For instance, the father of the man who made the decision had considered the same course of action and rejected it because he didn't want to try to deal with a probably intractable occupation that would likely lead to the empowerment of a radical Islamic leadership.


Yup, all those things should have been taken into consideration, OK.

Those are just some of the facts you'll have to account for if you want to convince reasonable people that we can absolve the Administration of any responsibility for betting the farm on this sucker bet on the rationale that once we've given people "newfound freedom," whatever bad things ensue can be considered to be their fault.

I think anyone who considers Iraqis adult human being understands that Iraqis are responsible for their actions. The US is not coercing them to kill each other, they are deciding to kill each other of their own volition. The US is certainly not forcing any Iraqi teenager to strap explosives on his chest and kill other random Iraqis on a street corner. Iraqis are not inherent violent criminals, they are not rabid dogs, and they are not mindless drone controlled by CETNCOM. They are human beings in control of themselves, just as you are a human being in control of yourself.

The responsibility for the content of the post to which I am replying is yours, not the teacher that educated you nor the mother that birthed you, it's YOURS.

What is about removing all the institutions of another nation's government and declaring them free while you occupy their nation, patrol their streets with guns, patrol their skies with attack helicopters and bombers and buy up their politicians with billions of dollars of cash that you think will allow us to lay the blame for the failure of "democracy in Iraq" on them?

See above.

And, more importantly, what is it about the "something in Iraq society [that makes them kill each other]" that we can change in order to "win" in Iraq? And where does that lead us?

Huh? Sorry, but you are responsible for making yourself clear, and sort of failing to do so. Try again.

Because if WE can't change THAT, don't you think we ought to declare defeat and get the hell out instead of sending more of our soldiers to kill, bleed and die there?

I've already said I don't really have a strong opinion on the best future direction for the US in Iraq since I don't know if our presence their helps, hurts or does nothing, so I'll reserve judgment, but I do think the surge sounds like a loser of a plan.

Have a nice day :-)