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Politics : The Truth About Islam -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Cage Rattler who wrote (5466)	2/28/2007 5:07:09 PM
From: one_less	Respond to of 20106

" I was alluding indirectly to suicide bombers, ... Ah. I didn't get it. I do consider them murderers btw. But you touched upon something that we really should consider if you are serious about getting to the bottom of all this. That is, believe it or not, (I know some don't) 98% of the billions of Muslims are more like us than not. They claim Islam as a matter of cultural heritage and loyalty to kith and kin. However, they think no more about it than the average person here thinks about God in their daily walk. 98% don't. Here is a recent comment I made to someone I consider a Moderate Muslim here on SI, specifically regarding suicide bombing (Note that his response was not based on the principles of Islam but some sort of misplaced patriatism): "You have no right to blow up innocents; further, it is definitely a contradiction and an hypocrisy to do it in the name of Islam. In the same sense, you have no more right to blow up the body that God gave you, for such a demonstration, than you do to blow up others. Both actions are abominable." Message 23264426 Common principle exists and is key if we are to get though this. We can clearly defeat others militarily with our superior fire power, but bombs alone do not command rule and respect in the world. "Moving on -- " I will get to your other points in the next post.

To: Cage Rattler who wrote (5466)	2/28/2007 5:23:59 PM
From: one_less	Respond to of 20106

"If that was a correct assumption, shouldn't our questions seek solutions to our common problem?" Yes indeed. "What religious pre-suppositions of Islam do you feel are unopened to negotiation? Nothing within God's domain is negotiable. God is not changeable at our beck and call. However, everything is subject to interpretation as applicable according to circumstance. All decent people, presuppose that God has made our natures to be well and do well when we bring peace to one another. Working to get to that state of Peaceful coexistence is a directive in all holy books. There is no excuse for this current mess, except that it is based on corruptions by us toward achieving that goal. Some of the things that are presented on this thread as pre-sups are simply not presupposed by the vast majority of Muslims. They may be presupped by murdering extremists, or by people who have a reason to present them that way (pissed at Muslims). The latter of which was not your question. "I would say the single most non-negotiable, pre-suppositions from the Judeo-Christian standpoint might be an individual's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- so long as that pursuits allow for equal rights for another(s). This is actually a product of thinking during the age of enlightenment. I don't see any contradiction between that presupposition and Islam. Other cultures may see the application of Islam in some other way but in American culture, I can find no contradiction and have never found a reasonable Muslim who claimed there is one. It may be a misconception on your part that Muslims in America don't love those ideals.

To: Cage Rattler who wrote (5466)	2/28/2007 6:01:09 PM
From: Proud_Infidel	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 20106

Girl Allegedly Offered as Bride to Settle Debt AP ^ \| 02/27/07 \| Zarar Khan news.aol.com KARACHI, Pakistan (Feb. 27) - Police are seeking 10 men, including several tribal elders, accused of pressuring a Pakistani woman to hand over her teenage daughter as payment for a 16-year-old poker debt, officials said Tuesday. In the latest case highlighting how conservative customs threaten women's rights in Pakistan, Nooran Umrani alleges that, despite paying off her late husband's debt of $165, she was threatened with harm if she failed to hand over her daughter, Rasheeda. The 17-year-old was to be surrendered as a bride for the son of Lal Haider, the man who won the card game years before, Umrani told reporters on Monday in Hyderabad, 100 miles northeast of Karachi. Umrani said her husband was a gambler who ran up the debt at a poker game when Rasheeda was 1 year old. He promised Haider that he would get Rasheeda in lieu of payment when she grew up, the mother said. Koral Shah, a Hyderabad police officer, said both families belong to the Umrani tribe of Pakistan's impoverished Baluchistan province. He said a group of elders from the tribe came to Hyderabad in January to investigate the case and had ruled that, under tribal custom, the girl should be married to Haider's 23-year-old son Abdul Ghani. Police want to arrest the elders, he said. Police said Tuesday the mother and daughter were in their protection and that an investigation was opened against Haider, his son and eight others. "We are investigating the matter and vigorously searching" for the men, Hyderabad police chief Irfan Bhutto said. President Gen. Pervez Musharraf has vowed to give women more rights in line with his policy to project Pakistan as a moderate, progressive Islamic nation. In December, Musharraf signed into law a bill that makes it easier to prosecute rape cases in the courts, and the country's ruling party recently introduced a bill to outlaw forced marriages, including under tribal custom in which women are married off in order to settle disputes.