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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: E who wrote (223399)	3/9/2007 3:27:05 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Respond to of 281500

Let's look at the "Islamic" issues that you've raised: (1) that opponents and critics of female genital mutilation were by definition enemies of Islam? I'd have to ask who had you believing such nonsense? There is a strong propaganda machine at work to air out the worst that happens in the Muslim world and make it sound like the norm (often with the aid of misquotations and mistranslations). There are Muslim scholars who'd argue even male circumcision is not required by Islam. Anyway, FEMALE "circumcision" is a north African cultural issue and a not a religious one. Incidentally, good'ol US of A is the number one country in the developed and semi-developed world that subjects its helpless infants to genital MUTILATION. We call it circumcision and there is no reason to think it any better than other forms of MUTILATION...but who wages a campaign against it here? Do you? (2) What about those who believe that the limitations placed on Muslim women in many countries are rightfully described as "oppression." Are you sure they are oppressed because of Islam? Many people in the world, Muslim or not, are oppressed. The pretext for such oppression is alway either religion, or ideology, or ethnicity, or "national security". But it always boils down to some thugs wanting to cling to power at gunpoint, or just plain Conservatism. If you are going to make a political argument, then I will not disagree with you that many Islamic countries suffer from totalitarian regimes to varying degrees and therefore their population, male and female, are oppressed to varying degrees. Often they are much less oppressive than some Christian countries such as those in Africa or Buddhist countries such as North Korea and Myanmar. If you are going to make a religious argument, then I say that: (a) although women's rights in Islam are not the SAME RIGHTS as in secular western countries, BUT THEY ARE VERY EXTENSIVE. For example, in Islam there is always a prenuptial agreement and the man's duties for child support are well spelled out. (b) I'd point out that for most of the history, women have had more rights under Islam than any other religion. To compare 21st century perspectives with more ancient religious texts is not a fair comparison. It would be more appropriate for example to compare Judaic laws with Islamic ones. (c) I don't believe people should have to obey any religious laws. It should always be a matter of personal choice. But that would bring us back to arguing from a secular perspective rather than a religious one. (3) What do you think of the jihad that was called against Salman Rushdie? I think Salman Rushdie was a boring nobody writer who decided to make a "provocative" statement to sell his book. Ironically, the so called "offensive" statement is commonly used by many Shia women when wishing to insult another woman. I also think that at the time that Rushdie tried to be opportunistic, Khomeini also made an opportunistic move to rally his supporters by giving them a cause: the "threat" against Islam (kinda like how everything is 9/11 this 9/11 that for some people). So you had two opportunistic forces at work. One of the points that was never properly pointed out in the West, is that nobody has to listen to what Khomeini said. Islam is not like Christianity where there is a hierarchy ending with the Pope. Anyone who is of a sufficient high standing can give a Fatwa BUT IT IS UP TO YOU TO CHOSE WHOSE FATWAS YOU WILL FOLLOW. This is also the reason that nobody can undo Khomeini's fatwa: one ayatollah cannot ask people not to listen to another ayatollah. But the people are free to make up their own mind. ST PS So how informed do you feel now? PPS Of course, I can't speak for Sarman, only for myself.

To: E who wrote (223399)	3/9/2007 5:03:35 PM
From: Sun Tzu	Respond to of 281500

Female genital cutting The practice of FGC predates both Islam and Christianity and there is no clear understanding of where or why the practice of FGC came into existence. Greek papyrus from 163 B.C. mentions girls in Egypt undergoing circumcision and it is widely accepted to have originated in Egypt and the Nile valley at the time of the Pharaohs. Evidence from mummies have shown both Type I and Type III FGC present.[15] It was most likely spread throughout the Northern parts of Africa with Arab slave traders and is now practiced among Muslims, Christians and Animists.[16] However, religion alone is not the common thread amongst FGC advocates, as it transcends both culture and religion. UNICEF stated that when "looking at religion independently, it is not possible to establish a general association with FGM/C status."[17] The main reasons for FGC can be categorized into four most common social justifications, and one financial: 1. The custom and tradition of becoming a woman involves this "rite of passage" from childhood to adulthood (ensuring she is good marriage material); 2. A desire to control women's sexuality (virginity, morality and marriageability); 3. A cultural practice that sometimes has a religious identification (a female's honor is a reflection on her entire family, and believing it is God's will); 4. Social conformity to the community;[15] 5. FGC is a primary source of income for many midwives/practitioners, who propagate the practice. Islam FGC predates Islam and is not practiced by the majority of Muslims, but has acquired a religious dimension.[18] Genital modification and mutilation is not explicitly endorsed in the Qur'an; indeed, it states, "We have indeed created man[kind] in the best of moulds" (Al-Tin 95:4).[19] ... Christianity As the FGC rituals predated the missionaries work in North Africa, many African tribes continue the practice as a matter of tradition, despite their religious conversion. In primarily Christian countries (for instance, Ghana), women undergoing circumcision make reference to the practice in the Old Testament, being performed by one of Abraham's wives, Sarah... Other groups In some other African cultures, such as animists, there exists the belief that a newborn child has elements of both sexes. In the male body the foreskin of the penis is considered to be the female element. In the female body the clitoris is considered to be the male element. Hence when the adolescent is reaching puberty, these elements are removed to make the indication of sex clearer en.wikipedia.org _________________________ So now I have to ask, how much trust do you have in those who had you believe "that opponents and critics of female genital mutilation were by definition enemies of Islam"?