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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Rambi who wrote (229919)	5/6/2007 3:45:23 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Respond to of 281500

Eut, there has been some success: <We made the ugly mess. I have no idea how we get out of it. I;m not sure we can with any grace or success.> Declare victory and leave is one answer. Simply up stakes and run for it. The USSR was defeated in Afghanistan. The USA might as well be defeated in Iraq as in Vietnam. See Mqurice's cheese and ant research for principles of success and failure. SI search function can find it. Search, "Mqurice cheese ants" There's no grace anyway, when reduced to animal fighting. There's no success for the dead and maimed. There's nothing to be said for all the destruction. Maybe some older buildings were due for demolition anyway. Uday won't darken anyone's doorway again. That's good. Saddam won't terrorize anyone else. Plenty of Islamic Jihadists have been killed, which is a good thing, though my preference is to persuade people to join my civilized ways rather than join them in their barbarian ways. Simply retreat and leave them to it. That is what people have done over millennia. Romans used to rule London. Now they rule Rome. Avignon popes took over from where Roman Empire emperors left off. Orange [near Avignon] was home to opposition to the popes at one time. Northern Irish Protestants still have Orange marches. Look at the history of Orange .... fighting fighting fighting... retreat, takeover ... it's quite interesting the ebb and flow of history pivoting around that lovely climate en.wikipedia.org The USA is just repeating history. There isn't much point in being killed in Iraq, or maimed, if it's not for very good reason. According to polls, which might not be true for all I know, about 70% of Iraqis want the USA to leave. Looks like a quorum to me. If it was 20% against the Cow's presence, and 80% for, it would be a different matter. Maybe it really was about the oil after all and having got it, the USA doesn't want to let it go. How will Halliburton turn a profit if not for uncontested contracts and lots of lovely oil? You don't think Dick Cheney and King George II got to be boss to help make the world safe for cyberspacoids like me do you? I don't think Islamic Jihad will go to Lebanon, Kansas, if the local yokels from Lebanon, Kansas go home. Not for a long time anyway, if at all, after the USA has been superseded. I doubt very much that 8th century atavistic barbarians will do the superseding. I think it's more likely to be cyberspacoids and the NUN [New United Nations]. That's me!! I am making very good progress. Mqurice PS: Euterpe, Eutrope? <It became a bishopric in the 4th century, and the hill fort of the Celtic Cavares was renamed for Saint Eutrope, the first bishop of Saintes. > Americans often change spelling from original.

To: Rambi who wrote (229919)	5/6/2007 3:55:59 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 281500

angry education rant. Pardon me. I know of no requirement that truth be to your liking. I have never said I believed we should pull out now. We made the ugly mess. I have no idea how we get out of it. I;m not sure we can with any grace or success. WELL! We agree on something. I don't either, actually. George f'ed up. BADLY. I THINK it boils don't to 3: (a) Send orders to MAC to get approximately 150,00 troops out of Iraq in the next week. Not one more drop of American blood should be spilled unless we intend to win. Then we take our chances as to what happens next. Annexation, official or otherwise, of all or most of the country by Iran is likeliest. Then we have a terrorist state with nukes. Leaky freighter sails into NY harbor with a nuke in the hold. BOOOM!!!!!!! You think 911 was bad? We'll soon know who did it. Count on that. Then comes a declaration of war, possibly ICBM launches by US, and we're back in. (b) We put 500,000 to 2,000,000 troops in and FIGHT! That means a draft. Trouble is, peaceniks, now controlling Congress, will never agree to that. (c)The fact is, those traitors won't agree to (a) either. This is politics, to hell with the troops lives. So we have a slow, painful, bleed-down until the remainder CAN'T fight. We go out with a whimper, not a bang.