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Politics : Just the Facts, Ma'am: A Compendium of Liberal Fiction -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: mph who wrote (59291)5/23/2007 10:36:53 AM
From: Elroy  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 90947
 
Your scenario is interesting, but doesn't address the *statistic*, which deals with United States Muslims, not those in Iraq under circumstances such as you describe.
Further, the poll referred to "defense of Islam", not to notions of revenge against an invading army. You can't take the "Muslim factor" out of this equation, imo.


Well, I was both taking the Muslim factor out of the equation and contemplating the part of the survey answer that said "in exceptional circumstances", or something to that effect. What I described was obviously "an exceptional circumstance", and I think my WAG conclusion (the number would be above 13%) applies to virtually any target group, not just Muslims. I wasn't discussing Iraq, or any actual event, but an "exceptional circumstance" where I think many individuals would resort to suicide bombing.

If there is any validity whatsoever to the numbers/poll under discussion, I would think you'd be very concerned. Personally, I find the notion that 13% of the Muslims in this country believe that suicide bombings can be justified to be very disturbing. Think of what a suicide bombing means.

Well there are millions of Muslims in the US and so far zero suicide bombings outside of 9/11. So reality says the real world "concern" you have about this poll is unfounded. I know what suicide bombing means, and I know that US Muslims don't do it and have never done it here in the US. So.........what's the cause of your concern?

If you read the question, theoretically some US Muslims say it is justified in some exceptional circumstances. I gave you one (which I just made out of the blue), but you seem to think that that's not what the poll answer is about. I'd argue that type of "theoretical example" is exactly what the poll is about. It's not about suicide bombing some guy who gets caught defacing a mosque. If it were, plenty of people would aleady have been suicide bombed for defacing US mosques. They haven't been.

Even what you're saying is disturbing. It boils down to an *eye for an eye.* "They invaded me and my family was killed in collateral damage; so I'm going to strap a grenade onto my belt and kill a bunch of school children on a bus."

Uhmmmmm, don't blame me, that's the way the world works. At least 13% of it.

In your scenario, the guy who would actually strap on a suicide vest to deliberately kill those "4 lovely children"
belongs in the ground. There is something seriously wrong with that way of thinking.


It's called revenge, and that guy didn't invent it.

I'm curious as to why you feel you must find a way to "justify" a practice like suicide bombing. There are some things in the world that can't be justified, even if one can somewhat understand the motivation.

I'm not justifying it (which I presume implies me passing a moral judgment on whether it is right or wrong), I'm just saying that it's a relatively common response in certain exceptional circumstances, and not unique to Muslims. Whether it is justified or not is not the topic.



To: mph who wrote (59291)5/23/2007 10:59:25 AM
From: MrLucky  Respond to of 90947
 
I took this from SF Gate which took it from the SF Chronicle. I bolded some paragraphs which interested me.

'Troubling' views on suicide bombings
78% of U.S. Muslims opposed, but young adults are less sure
Matthai Chakko Kuruvila, Amr Emam, Chronicle Staff Writers

Wednesday, May 23, 2007

About 1 in 4 young adult American Muslims says suicide bombings against civilian targets "to defend Islam" can be justified rarely, sometimes or often, according to a new Pew Research Center poll -- a finding that disturbed American Muslim leaders and thinkers across the country.

"It's something that the Muslim community should be aware of -- it's a phenomenon we should be concerned about," said Farid Senzai, a Fremont resident and director of research for the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, which helped shape the questions on the survey. "It is very troubling."

At the same time, the poll of 1,050 people across the country found that 78 percent of U.S. Muslims reject suicide bombings entirely.

Pew's survey provides a groundbreaking look at American Muslims, one of the nation's highest-profile and least understood groups. Its findings include responses from African American Muslims, who account for 20 percent of U.S. Muslims, according to Pew's estimate.

Surveys like this one are key to learning about people of faith in the United States because the U.S. Census Bureau -- the most comprehensive provider of demographic information -- does not ask about religion.

Senzai and others cautioned that the figures should be kept in context: Only 1 percent of Muslims overall said suicide bombings are "often" justifiable and an additional 7 percent said they are "sometimes" justifiable.

Several American Muslim leaders said survey respondents, particularly those 18 to 29, were probably thinking about foreign policy and Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation -- and do not support attacks such as the Sept. 11 hijackings or the train bombings in London and Madrid.

"To believe that Palestinians are justified in retaliating and fighting back is a different animal than attacking America," said Ihsan Bagby, an Islamic studies professor at the University of Kentucky and an adviser to the Pew Research Center poll. "One does not have any security implications for America, and the other is a localized struggle to fight an occupier."

In a broad way, the survey found that American Muslims are increasingly integrated into American society. Seventy-eight percent said they were "very happy" or "pretty happy." Roughly 71 percent believe hard work can lead to success in America.

A stunning 92 percent of Muslim immigrants who arrived prior to 1990 have become citizens, as have 70 percent of those who arrived during the 1990s.

"This is not a picture of an alienated community," said Luis Lugo, director of the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, a division of the Pew Research Center that helped conduct the poll.

But the survey also found an increasing distrust of U.S. foreign policy.

Only 26 percent of the Muslims surveyed agreed that "the U.S.-led war on terrorism is a sincere effort to reduce international terrorism." By contrast, 67 percent of Americans as a whole believe the war on terror is sincere.

The war in Iraq is wrong, according to 75 percent of the Muslims surveyed, and only 40 percent believe Arabs carried out the Sept. 11 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

The survey revealed some striking demographic information:

-- Pew estimates that there are 2.35 million Muslims in the United States -- 4 million to 6 million fewer than many American Muslim groups estimate.

-- African Americans are the single largest ethnic group among Muslims, accounting for 20 percent. Another 65 percent are immigrants from an array of countries, with the single largest group -- 8 percent -- from Pakistan.

"Next to the pilgrimage to Mecca, this is as representative a Muslim community as you'd find anywhere in the world," Lugo said. The annual journey to the spiritual center of the Islamic world brings together the faithful from across the globe.

Andrew Kohut, president of the Pew Research Center, said the response to the question about suicide bombings against civilians could reflect the greater support Pew has found in past polls among young adults of all religious and ethnic backgrounds for military tactics, such as war.

Abdurrahman Anwar said Muslims who believe their faith justifies suicide bombings are misguided.

"Killing innocent people can't be called (for) in the name of Islam," said Abdurrahman, 23, the imam of the Yassin Foundation, which runs a Belmont mosque. "Islam doesn't support killing, regardless of whether the victims are Muslims or not. Life is sacred, and man is not allowed to commit suicide or even destroy another's life."

Imam Tahir Anwar of the South Bay Islamic Association said that in his travels across the country, he has never encountered a young Muslim who has supported suicide bombings. And he said there's never justification for it.


Anwar said if someone did mention bombings to him, he would counsel them about proper teachings.

Imran Maskatia, a Hayward resident who is active in a number of Bay Area Muslim organizations, said he fears the poll numbers on suicide bombings will be blown out of proportion.

But he said Muslim organizations must ensure that young Muslims have outlets for concerns. Participation in youth groups and other activities can play a big part, he said.

"We definitely need to make sure that our youth feel a part of society," said Maskatia, 31. "We need to make sure that this general sentiment doesn't translate into something more extreme."