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To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (14073)	6/4/2007 12:50:37 PM
From: Augustus Gloop	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 14758

Hey - if you don't believe in God thats fine with me. I'm not poking fun at atheists so I don't think you should sit back and denigrate religion. I know of many people saved by religion - I can't think of one person who came out and said my atheism save me.

To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (14073)	6/4/2007 4:23:37 PM
From: Augustus Gloop	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 14758

Now that my mouth is better I want to say something. I think you should be ashamed for making the remarks you have about religion. Maybe it isn't your cup of tea but you have no business making the kind of remarks you do about what other people believe. You act like you're superior and I have news for you - along side of me you're so inferior (on every level) that you're almost not worth a response. I think I've been fairly respectful of you even though we don't agree on everything. You should be so well grounded. That doesn't mean I think you should run out and join a church - thats your call to make and either way its fine by me. I guess I always thought democrats were tolerant of other people and their views. Apparently thats not the case with you and thats too bad. Sometimes I make remarks I shouldn't - I did it the other day with Iktomi and I wish I hadn't. What made that situation unique is that she came itching for a battle and I thought she was pretty condescending and full of herself. I still do but I should have handled myself better. That was a mistake on my part but at least I'm man enough to own up to it. There's nothing wrong with your not being religious - its a choice and thats fine. What is wrong is cocking other people off as if YOU KNOW everything about life. Wasn't that what pissed you off about religious people? You felt they acted as if they knew everything? Well you're doing the exact same thing. We'll have to start calling you hypocrisy Joey because you expect one thing but when the ball is in your court you deliver another. I'm not a combative hardcore - I really don't care what others believe until they start chastising my belief system. Think about it - I think I'm being fair - mostly

To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (14073)	6/11/2007 9:02:16 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Respond to of 14758

many great thinkers believe in a god, but there are no great thinkers who do not accept evolution in place of special creation. Isaac Newton? Galileo? Descartes? Liebnitz? Fermat? The Bernoulli brothers? Beethoven? Mozart? Maimonides? Roger Bacon? William of Ockham (of Occam's Razor fame)? Copernicus? Kepler? Hobbes? Pascal? Spinoza? Maybe you ought to say "STOP!" There are a lot left. They died before Darwin was born and never could not possibly have read "The Origin Of Species". They were Christians- -some adamantly so. You think these men were idiots and you're so much smarter? Are you kidding? Do you REALLY believe you could invent calculus, given the mathematical basis Newton and Liebnitz had to work from? Ever notice that most charities in this country have religious ties? Yeah, some are scams and some have outrageous "overheads." And some are honestly run and attempt to do what they claim. I know of TWO- -count 'em, TWO- -strictly secular charities. How many can YOU name? The situation is so bad I give on an individual basis- -me to a person I somehow know. This also has the advantage of not accidentally making the charity director's next BMW payment. You know where the money is going. I think you're a young kid- -20's, 30's. It may surprise you but, assuming nothing horrible happens to you (being male, that is a problem), you have a LOT to learn about life. More than you even suspect. Has it EVER occurred to you that there are people who are made better people because of religious beliefs? And they're not made into bigots? I can spot some right off on this thread. But if Gloop is willing to let you believe as you choose as long as you leave him alone, what's the problem? And are you telling him he should NOT vote his conscious? Do you not? Where's the difference? Oh. I'm a CONSERVATIVE AGNOSTIC/ATHEIST. EXPLAIN THAT. You seem to think that religious belief is tied directly to political belief. Has it EVER occurred to you that there is a logical basis to conservatism that can be reached independent of religious belief? How do you explain that long line of conservatives BEFORE the rise of the Christian Right?