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To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (14155)	6/4/2007 10:15:42 PM
From: Augustus Gloop	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 14758

Can you see where I may think that either A) You're talking down to me or B) You're baiting me to fire back a bunch of reasons that you wont accept anyhow? For what purpose? What do I have to prove to some person I've never met before. Whats in it for me?

To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (14155)	6/7/2007 7:19:16 PM
From: one_less	Respond to of 14758

"...you fall into the same pattern of all believers I've talked to...... They believe, but can't say why. You must have the ability to rationally discuss the limits of the temporal before you can address ideas extending beyond the temporal. So far, you have shown you are incapable of either. Morality is purposeful and requires a belief that the purpose of morality is just and achievable even if that justice lies beyond our limited view of circumstance. As I mentioned in my first response to you, it is reasonable to conclude that moral goodness is self evident. Self evidence is enough evidence to conclude that it is simply good in and of itself to be kind, charitable, compassionate, benevolent etc. This is naturally the condition of humanness; It feels right and good to behave this way, so you can figure out for yourself that it is morally good and a choice available to you, as all people can. If that was all there was to it, we could rightly draw the conclusion that it is morally good to do whatever seems good at the moment or whatever feels good. However, many things seem good in and of themselves, eventually turning out to be seductive traps that are harmful over the long term, when done in excess, or when lacking wise counsel. They seem to go beyond the science of observation, at least in the physical sense. Illusion and delusion may lie beyond the observable just as truth and wisdom may. When we reach the limits of the scientific observation we may begin to recognize phenomenon that reach beyond. Force is a phenomenon studied and codified by scientists. We are able to creatively influence the forces known to us. Our influence incorporates explanations of such things as 'awareness' and 'vision' which are detectable and associated with the physical universe. I spoke to a micro-biologist from the university about photo-synthesis. He described all the stages/cycles involved with the plant's chloroplast capturing sunlight and manufacturing chlorophyll (life at the beginning of the food chain). So, I asked him to show me the exact point at which the elements of non-life, (molecules, chemicals, photons, and electrons) become life. He smirked a bit then winked and said in a very quiet voice, "let's just call that the blue magic of the process." I asked the director of a hospital a similar question about life at conception and got a similar type of answer. I’ve asked the same type of questions about brains and ideas, consciousness and awareness, and in discussions related to time and existence. In the last moments of pre-dawn thought, everyone with eyes to see and ears to hear, every scientist, philosopher, and seeker of knowledge realizes what lies just beyond the observable is wondrously purposeful, infinite, and eternal ... it's reasonable to think so and to believe it is so.

To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (14155)	6/7/2007 9:53:25 PM
From: Brumar89	Read Replies (4) \| Respond to of 14758

Here's a modest stab at a logical basis for belief: There are four great miracles that we have physical evidence of readily available to us: 1) The coming into existence of the universe. Things do not begin without a cause. 2) The universe that came into existence was against incredible odds fine-tuned in such a way that life can exist in it. The best cosmologists testify to the truth of this. 3) The beginning of life by spontaneous generation is impossible, just as it impossible that the computer in front of you spontaneously generated. 4) The biochemical process that is life has become couscious, self-aware, with a mind and a will of its own. These things are both evidence of a Creator and evidence the Creator is deeply interested in the beings he has created.