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Politics : Just the Facts, Ma'am: A Compendium of Liberal Fiction -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Oeconomicus who wrote (59739)	6/8/2007 4:29:31 PM
From: Jim S	Respond to of 90947

There ya go!! That's the ol' Oecon that I remember. Calm, logical, and spouting common sense. This is a crazy season politically. Too many candidates and too many ideas. I hope us conservative SI-ers can keep our lids on and talk about things sensibly instead of attacking one another. And that goes for all who have become incensed over "ownership" of slightly differing idea.

To: Oeconomicus who wrote (59739)	6/8/2007 4:34:46 PM
From: longnshort	Respond to of 90947

McCain is out of touch, McCain-Feingold goes against the 1st amendment. The immigration bill is just amnesty, no one will pay a 5k fine and no one will go back to their home country. They will just become legal and get every right a citizen gets but the right to vote. Already some areas allow non citizen the right to vote, in local elections . And it will be just a matter of time before they allow them to vote in all elections. Slippery slope.

To: Oeconomicus who wrote (59739)	6/8/2007 9:15:03 PM
From: Sully-	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 90947

<< "I hold people I respect to a high standard of reason... " >> Right or wrong, so do I. In fact, I tend to become more upset when someone I respect crosses the line than anyone who has shown they do not deserve my respect. And if you are like me, you hold yourself to those same high standards since it's extremely hard to respect a hypocrite. << "Frankly, our open tent party includes a whole lot of narrow-minded dolts, bigots and plain ol' ignoramuses" >> Yes it does. Frankly, I am occasionally taken back how often I find myself shaking my head when it happens. The fact that our liberal peers make us look like a bunch of choir boys by comparison is no excuse IMO. << "As for this thread, I guess I'm pissed because I'm disappointed.... in those here whose opinions on issues I actually have respect for. This used to be a place where... [t]here's been plenty of mostly civil disagreement here.... including over such things as abortion, religion, the war. I think most are still fully capable of enlightened debate, but lately, on certain issues especially, the discussion is little more than angry bumper-sticker rhetoric, pasting of same from elsewhere on the internet, and labeling of anyone who disagrees as a "liberal" infiltrator from Soup Al's thread." >> I'm very, very sorry you feel that way Oeconomicus, because I have always had such high respect for your extremely well articulated, reality based POV's (and I still do). I agree that on immigration there has been far too much "angry bumper-sticker rhetoric", personal attacks & uncivil behavior than this thread has seen in a long time. I am at fault for not trying to curb it more forcibly when it began. And even though you are right to point out this boorish behavior, you too have contributed to it as well. I know I haven't been contributing to the ongoing debates as much as I have in the past. Unfortunately, I have been battling a lot of health issues & have had to dramatically cut down on the time I spend online. I doubt my lack of rants & raves have affected your thinking about the high quality of debate on this thread though. BTW, I'm delighted to see Alan Smithee giving his 2¢ a little more often again. Hopefully he'll return to his old ways & become the 2nd most frequent contributor here again. His wit & wisdom was one of the main reasons why I joined this thread. And the list of other valued contributors is quite long IMO. Personally I have been impressed with the ongoing high quality of reality based debate which this thread is so capable of accomplishing. Have I been occasionally disappointed with some things that have been posted? Yes! But no more than any time in the past IMO. I promise to do what I reasonably can to steer our discussions here toward reality based debate & away from partisan sniping, angry bumper-sticker rhetoric, personal attacks & inappropriate labeling. I also know I've been posting a lot of info from 3rd parties as I always have. However, since taking over as moderator I've tried to include even more POV's that I am not completely in agreement with in the hopes it would encourage folks to engage in some healthy debate. Perhaps I should have announced that decision publicly to avoid any misunderstandings. Please, if you or anyone has any realistic suggestions that would improve this thread make those POV's known. Tim

To: Oeconomicus who wrote (59739)	6/9/2007 1:59:31 AM
From: Lazarus_Long	Respond to of 90947

Coulter is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. There have been times when I wonder if she does any fact checking at all on what she writes. The basic problem, I think, is a lack of trust of the government on this issue. Remember, this problem has been "solved" numerous times before - including 1986. Part of the legislation then provided fines for employers of illegal aliens. What the gov't DIDN'T provide was any real system at all for verifying someone you hired was a legal US citizen. The employer always had an out: "Hey, the guy showed me a birth certificate that said he was born in Colorado. And he had a SS card. How could I know they were fake? I'm not a forensic document expert." A proposal that might have a chance is that we secure the borders FIRST and stop the flow, THEN we address the problem of what to do with the illegals. Probably ought to include a provision that no one who cannot show they were in the country before that proposal is eligible for anything but deportation. The mere idea is likely to start a stampede north. The people of this country aren't ogres; they probably will allow prior illegal immigrants to become legal once they know they won't be screwed again. But we've been had by our politicos on this so many times we have a right not to trust them on this. The fear is we get 12 million new citizens and then nothing else happens, just like before. Get THAT into law and then actually do it and you might get someplace. But there is no need for one "comprehensive" bill; that is just writing the gov't a blank check. BTW, do you remember how 3 of those 5 Fort Dix plotters got into this country? Why are we allowing a situation like this to exist while spending billions in Iraq?