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To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (14242)	6/9/2007 9:00:17 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 14758

"There is almost nothing you said that was logical Please indicate what you believe to be illogical about the following. I will piece it out for you: 1) The universe of space and matter is observable to us ... 2)The universe of space and matter is observable to us because the distinct parts are noticeable from sun to particle by their positions in space. 3) As they collapse into something more uniform and therefore less distinct, we are less able to notice them as relative parts of the universe separated by space...driven apart by differences. Clarifying note: When something is divided we notice it as two things (the two not occupying the same space). 4) Their movements away from uniformity or collapses into uniformity are noticeable as space/time events. Clarifying note: Time's measurability is dependent on events. 5) Through entropy, diversity is diminished and distinct parts disappear, as does their distinct position in space. In other words they become so much a part of the whole that they have no identity of their own... a sound blending in becomes no sound, a ripple in the lake eventually disappears, and becomes 'nothing', it no longer exists as a distinct piece of the universe. Clarifying note: When parts are distinguishable, they can be seen as a separate distinct thing organized in a broader field of things. When the organization becomes less distinguishable the things within it become not identifyable as separated and organized things and are known only as the one thing. A ripple is a thing a sound blast is a thing but neither exists as a particular thing after the fact. This is a description of entropy. 6) An absolute uniform universe becomes a oneness that defies description. Clarifying note: When everything in the universe joins into a oneness that has no distinct parts separated by space and no events are taking place (moving parts in expansion or collapse) perfect uniformity exists but no time or space can be measured. 7) So a gumball state of the Universe preparing to bang represents a small very uniform view of existence bound in a tiny space. If the gumball achieves perfect uniformity 'singularity' it needs no space at all and its material parts are indistinguishable. Clarifying Note: Preceding the gumball (which is something in space) there is perfect uniformity. 8) Science has not way to describe this state of existence except to refer to it as nothing. Clarifying note: Science is bound by the limitation of observing things by their unique relative positions in time and space. 9)We can also speculate that time must have a similar course that leads to an end. Clarifying note: Time is a dimension of the Temporal Universe that takes its measurable characteristics from the events occuring in the Temporal Universe. Without events occuring someplace all time stops. 10) In order for this to occur, material in space must become so uniform that it is no longer distinguishable. At such a time we can no longer notice it, or an occupying space. This is the premise behind black holes btw. Clarifying Note: If you care to study what happens to the things that enter a black hole, this is exactly what is described by scientists... the distinct things disappear entering into a oneness of uniformity seeming to disappear because they no longer take up separate spaces, there is no space or material where there once was vast space and material ... gone. 11) So, for time to begin it must have an alpha state for which we have no mechanism of detection but we can allude to it as perfect and singular uniformity ... then bang. For time to end, material and space must return to this singular uniformity allowing for zero occupation in space. Clarifying note: No space = no thing in that space = nothing. 12) That would support a banging and collapsing claim. Clarifying note: You had no supporting logic for the bang you believe in. Now you do... you're welcome. 12) However it does not eliminate the possibility of repeated inflations toward the omega of existence and collapses to the alpha of existence. Clarifying Note: The Oscillation theory suggests numerous episodes of a new universe collapsing into zero followed by the banging of another new universe. 13) Neither possibility necessarily, obliterating the other, nor does it obliterate claims of an extra-temporal force. Clarifying note: Neither the possibility of a single episode of a banged universe or multiple occurances of an oscillating universe proves that there is no extra-temporal force. 14) It is perfectly rational to accept the existence of influences in the universe that act unencumbered by laws of physics, and beyond the scope of scientific method. Physics is a set of laws created by us to help understand certain phenomenon that we are concerned about, no one but a lab cloak cleric would claim physics is the answer to all inquiry. Clarifying note: We write the laws the phenomenon we describe exist with or without the dogma of science we create. We create science dogma to better understand our circumstance in a temporal existence. "There is almost nothing you said that was logical... Its all logical. " must have missed it, stupid me. You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. If you weren't so determined to prove your ignorance, you could probably use reason to see the logic of the universe in front of your nose.

To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (14242)	6/9/2007 9:09:11 PM
From: one_less	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 14758

"...and evidence that the universe is expanding and is collapsing or will collapse. On this latter point there are cosmologists who predict that but they have by no means convinced science at large... Just out of curiosity, what is convinced science at large, the authoritative body of dogma that represents your belief system? It always intrigues me that people who most emphatically defend a belief system are the first to violate it's principles. You being a prime example.