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To: andiron who wrote (82883)	6/20/2007 11:47:00 AM
From: skinowski	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 110194

capitalism is overhyped..Marx anticipated that capitalism would self-destruct.. Looks like old KM was wrong in his prediction. It is rather his beloved socialistic experiments that keep self destructing.... in the process destroying economies - and lives of millions. The simplest definition of Capitalism is - a political system under which individual rights are protected, including the right to own property and means of production.

To: andiron who wrote (82883)	6/20/2007 3:20:55 PM
From: bart13	Respond to of 110194

capitalism is overhyped..Marx anticipated that capitalism would self-destruct.. Orwell said it much better and without Marxist BS. # ...throughout recorded time...there have been three kinds of people in the world, the High, the Middle, and the Low...The aims of these three groups are entirely irreconcilable. The aim of the High is to remain where they are. The aim of the Middle is to change places with the High. The aim of the Low, when they have an aim -- for it is an abiding characteristic of the Low that they are too much crushed by drudgery to be more than intermittently conscious of anything outside their daily lives -- is to abolish all distinctions and create a society in which all men shall be equal. Thus throughout history a struggle which is the same in its main outlines recurs over and over again. For long periods the High seem to be securely in power, but sooner or later there always comes a moment when they lose either their belief in themselves or their capacity to govern efficiently, or both. They are then overthrown by the Middle, who enlist the Low on their side by pretending to them that they are fighting for liberty and justice. As soon as they have reached their objective, the Middle thrust the Low back into their old position of servitude, and themselves become the High. Presently a new Middle group splits off from one of the other groups, or from both of them, and the struggle begins over again. Of the three groups, only the Low are never even temporarily successful in achieving their aims. But the problems of perpetuating a hierarchical society go deeper than this. There are only four ways in which a ruling group can fall from power. Either it is conquered from without, or it governs so inefficiently that the masses are stirred to revolt, or it allows a strong and discontented Middle group to come into being, or it loses its own self-confidence and willingness to govern. -- 1984, George Orwell

To: andiron who wrote (82883)	6/20/2007 5:51:16 PM
From: Oblomov	Respond to of 110194

Markets exist whether or not the ruling class permits them to operate. Under Marx's historical materialism, all historical changes are the are a consequence of the mode of production. But how is the mode of production established? Isn't the mode of production different today than in 1849? If so, isn't it possible to attribute these changes to the inventions of specific people, such as Henry Ford, W. Edward Deming, Thomas Edison, and Henry Bessemer...rather than mysterious forces? Under Marxism, there are not supposed to be things that have a market value without a use value (labor theory of value). How do you explain the fact that a Picasso sells for $40 MM? What can you use it for? How can you explain the value of the shares of Berkshire Hathaway, which pays no dividend, or even a dividend-paying stock? Marx's uncle was Lion Phillips, who founded what became the Phillips Electric Company (yes, Marx got financial life support from his uncle, among several others). His uncle was rather enlightened in his views on the treatment of workers, and invited Marx several times to visit his factories, but he declined each time. In fact there is no record of Marx visiting a factory, mill, or mine his whole life. Marxism was an intellectual's reaction against modernity, and so it was adopted readily in the countries that were most feudal in nature: Russia, China, Kampuchea, etc. It allowed the ruling class to maintain the feudal caste system while centralizing power. It let them industrialize the economy while putting a "scientific", modern gloss on the old system of vassalage. Even though Marx made some big methodology errors in Kapital, at least he tried to use empirical reasoning to make his points. That's more than can be said for his epigones.