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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Road Walker who wrote (343152)	7/13/2007 4:20:29 PM
From: combjelly	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1574852

"Sectarian Extremists Versus Jefferson" Jefferson wasn't the only one. Many of the Founding Fathers were not big fans of Christianity. Now, certainly, some were very devout Christians. But, again, just as certainly, others were not. Here is a sampling I ran across. JOHN ADAMS "I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" --in a letter to Thomas Jefferson JAMES MADISON "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." "What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." --both quotes from his 'Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments' THOMAS JEFFERSON "Question with boldness even the existence of a god." --letter to Peter Carr, 1787 "You say you are a Calvinist. I am not. I am of a sect by myself, as far as I know." --letter to Ezra Stiles Ely, 1819 BENJAMIN FRANKLIN "If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in the Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution in the Romish church, but practiced it upon the Puritans. These found it wrong in the Bishops, but fell into the same practice themselves both here [England] and in New England." --from his essay, "Toleration" Also, a Dr. Priestley, an intimate friend of Franklin, wrote of him: "It is much to be lamented that a man of Franklin's general good character and great influence should have been an unbeliever in Christianity, and also have done as much as he did to make others unbelievers" --from Priestley's Autobiography THOMAS PAINE "Of all the systems of religion that ever were invented, there is no more derogatory to the Almighty, more unedifiying to man, more repugnant to reason, and more contradictory to itself than this thing called Christianity." "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my church." --from Paine's book, "The Age of Reason"

To: Road Walker who wrote (343152)	7/14/2007 6:16:22 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1574852

Thomas Jefferson, the author of the concept that the United States should maintain a "wall of separation" in order to avoid the development of a state religion of the sort that had existed in the monarchies of Europe, was a student Hinduism. His library included Hindu texts, and when he wrote the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom, which laid the groundwork for the Constitution protection of religious practice and pluralism, he specifically avoided making reference to the Christian faith -- though its adherents dominated the public life of Virginia and other colonies -- because he wanted it to be known that all religions, including Hinduism, were respected and welcomed in the United States. Have you had a chance to read this article I posted: Message 23700922 The reporter goes on a cruise with a bunch of National Review clients. From reading the comments by the cruise members, its pretty clear they write their own history. And when the real thing is presented, they ignore it. I don't know how long they've been writing their own history but I would say by the sounds of their comments at least from the end of Vietnam War if not before it.