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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236429)	7/14/2007 9:13:59 PM
From: el_gaviero	Respond to of 281500

“If the Israels had really acted the least bit like Arabs, let alone Nazis, there wouldn't be a single Arab living today ...” This is actually rather an interesting argument. Let me see if I have it straight. First, set up an anti-ideal, in the form of a very high standard of evil, such as Nazi Germany or (according to Nadine) Arab states. Second, say that Israel does not rise up to the high standard of this anti-ideal. That is, say that Israel is not as bad as Nazi Germany. Therefore, .......therefore..... what? What follows from this argument? How do we get from this argument (i.e., that Israel is not as bad as she could be if she really set her mind to it) to what we have now: total, complete one-sided support for Israel. Nothing follows from Nadine’s argument. Just because Israel is a shitty little imperial power that only kills people in the thousands instead of the tens of thousands, and only kills a few little girls every now and then, we should give Israel billions of dollars, we should give Israel arms, we should always take Israel’s side in her quarrel with the Palestinian people (one of the weakest, most undefended people on earth), we should start wars against countries that are Israel’s enemies not ours; we should be the cause of the deaths of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLES, all because the shitty, little imperial regime that is Israel is not as bad as is theoretically possible. I say that this argument comes from a mind that is so sick that the person who makes it is a sociopath.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236429)	7/15/2007 1:00:50 AM
From: c.hinton	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

Nadine ...what can i say but that you are right. sadly hypocracy is not going away ...there are those who will always want to believe the worst about jews. Jews are held to a higher standard than others.....and for the most part they have achived that higher standard through hard work, brains and a higher morality than most others......that ideal of higher morality is being buried in palastine.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236429)	7/15/2007 5:58:20 AM
From: Elroy	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 281500

The Arab rulers get to deflect their population's unrest onto an external scapegoat. Arab rulers still have their population's unrest to deal with, every day. The Europeans get to deflect their guilt over the Holocaust onto the Israelis. Most Europeans who felt real guilt about the holocaust are dead already. For the today's European the holocaust is just another sad bit of history, a long past history, that affected their grandparents. If the Israelis are acting like Nazis, they don't need to be guilty anymore, right? If the Israels had really acted the least bit like Arabs, let alone Nazis, there wouldn't be a single Arab living today inside the bounds of the former Mandate of Palestine. Or maybe a handful, just as there are only a handful of Jews left living in Syria and Egypt. All of Israel, including Judea and Samaria (which btw have been the names of those territories for 3000 years) would be entirely Jewish. If those areas were 50%-50% Jew/non-Jew prior to 1948, and Israel-proper today is 83%-17% Jew/non-Jew today, then I'd say the expulsion of the non-Jews by the Jews in Israel is similar if not more pronounced to what happened in Germany, wouldn't you say? 80% of the non-Jews left Israel or were killed. 100% of the Jews left Germany or were killed. What, are the Israelis proud that their equivalent number is 80% and not 100%? Well la de da, the Nazis baet them by a hair in expulsion/murder competition. How about the re-entrance competition? Does Germany today restricty Jewish re-immigration to Germany because the applicant is Jewish? Did German Jews who left Germany in 1935 get to return in 1946? How about non-Jewish residents of what became Israel, could they return and become citizens of the new nation founded where they grew up, or did they have the wrong number of Xs and Os stamped on their forehead?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236429)	7/15/2007 7:35:22 AM
From: jttmab	Respond to of 281500

The Europeans get to deflect their guilt over the Holocaust onto the Israelis. If the Israelis are acting like Nazis, they don't need to be guilty anymore, right? The Israelis are certainly acting like the Nazis in the earlier years. The earlier choice for the Nazis was to make their lives so bad that they would leave. Isn't that what Israel hopes for with the largest and most densely populated slum in the world? Of course it is. That's also why there's no right of return. I guess you're not aware that there were other people besides Jews that died in the Holocaust. A lot of Poles for example. But you want the Poles to feel guilty for what happened to Jews while you forget about the millions of non-Jewish Poles that were exterminated. The guilt trip is running out of time Nadine. People who were born after 1945 might feel sympathetic, but they don't have any reason to feel guilty. They weren't alive. jttmab