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Politics : Foreign Affairs Discussion Group -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236839)	7/18/2007 2:26:22 AM
From: Elroy	Respond to of 281500

The Gulf states (UAE, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait) all began as nations in the early 1970s. Previously they were British controlled territories. They were originally intended to be one nation, but Kuwait and Qatar decided to go their own way and be independent. As for Bahrain, they don't have any oil, so who cares?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236839)	7/18/2007 2:32:27 AM
From: epicure	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

You are right Nadine. I put that badly. What I meant was, the Arabs have been there, albeit moved around by the colonial powers, and are thus "indigenous"- which is what I was trying to get at, (and you have given a fine example of why there is a systemic and historical reason for the Arabs to hate not only the colonial powers, but to hate their creation- Israel. Right?) We do not support the Arab states at the level we support Israel- although we did give money to Egypt for making nice with Israel, but that's recent. I don't see the same level of historic support. Maybe there has been, but I don't think I've seen any evidence for it. You have helped make my point. Not only were the Arabs abused by the colonial forces which exploited their tribal rivalries, but they were saddled with Israel in their midst. It's understandable why the colonial powers after creating Israel might support it, now isn't it? And I think even you would agree that many countries have played a part in Israel's survival- wouldn't you?

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236839)	7/18/2007 2:34:49 AM
From: carranza2	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 281500

What a phenomenally ignorant statement. Not ONE of the Arab states predates 1920, and Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait and Iraq started life as direct colonies of France and Britain, while Saudi Arabia started as a client state of the British and Syria of Frace. Probably true for the rest of the Arab Gulf states too, I am just less familiar with their details. It boggles the mind that aggressively asserted assumptions about the historical antecedents are based on such an inadequate base of knowledge. Sarman, ST, et al, are all guilty of this. It is as if wishful thinking had taken over, a wish for things to be the way they want them to be and therefore, presto!, that's the way they are and were and forever will be. Amusing, very amusing. You obviously know ME history backwards and forwards and can form worthwhile judgments based on knowledge, not passion or prejudice. A solid grounding through intense reading, reflection and analysis beats a 10 second Google search hands down, especially if the subject matter requires an understanding of context.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236839)	7/18/2007 2:39:30 AM
From: epicure	Respond to of 281500

The 14th century Egyptian historian Al-Maqrizi, for instance, defines Egypt's boundaries as extending from the Mediterranean in the north to lower Nubia in the south; and between the Red Sea in the east and the oases of the Western/Libyan desert. The modern borders therefore are more than mere creations of European colonial powers, and are at least in part based on historically definable entities which are in turn based on certain cultural and ethnic identifications. Sikes-Picot treaty en.wikipedia.org Not the high point of colonial benevolence- nor was Balfour. I'm not sure how this helps your arguments, Nadine. Just makes Israel look even more like a creature of the Western powers, inflicted on the Arabs who were already being dicked around in many other ways.

To: Nadine Carroll who wrote (236839)	7/18/2007 9:20:40 AM
From: bentway	Respond to of 281500

"Not ONE of the Arab states predates 1920, and Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Kuwait and Iraq started life as direct colonies of France and Britain, while Saudi Arabia started as a client state of the British and Syria of Frace. Probably true for the rest of the Arab Gulf states too, I am just less familiar with their details. " There was land where the nomadic and other Arabs had lived and roamed for thousands of years. That you don't consider it a nation-state doesn't change that fact.