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Politics : Just the Facts, Ma'am: A Compendium of Liberal Fiction -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: epicure who wrote (61660)	8/4/2007 4:08:07 PM
From: Lazarus_Long	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 90947

"If you are willing to use force to stop genocide in Darfur (I'm assuming you are), " you are wrong I'm not "Good! BUT you've seen the TV ads. You know liberals want intervention in Sudan. They talk about 'the UN'. That means us, effectively." Genocide is not the unique business of the US. When all the countries of the world want to tackle it, fine, but I'm not for the US doing all the heavy lifting. "Meanwhile,back in reality, that won't happen. That's the UN and the UN is worthless. They expect the US to do the heavy lifting. The only reason anything happened in the Balkans was because of NATO and that was because the US pushed the cowardly Europeans into shamefully stepping up to the plate." Firstly, we have a huge deficit, and I don't think we can afford it, and secondly, we look like chumps with our fingers in dikes all over the world, doing the heavy lifting for everyone else. "This won't change." (I know you won't recall this, even though I say it over and over, but I said the same thing about intervention in the Balkans. I'm not non-interventionist, I'm just frugal- and do not want the US shouldering everything.) "I don't recallm it. BUT the Balkans was in the Europeans back yard and was their responsibility. If they wouldn't stop it, it's not our business unless we attacked." IMO we leave Iraq to the Iraqis. "You wish. Such a POV is blind. Have you heard of Iran?" If the world wants to put together a stabilizing force, fine. "It won't." We should not have invaded, and let the genii out of the bottle "Agreed." but I don't see why the US has to suffer indefinitely for that mistake. "Because the chances are excellent you will and your children will pay anyway? Because OBL has has already said The following text is the second fatwa originally published on February 23, 1998, to declare a holy war, or jihad, against the West and Israel. It is signed by Osama bin Laden, head of al Qaeda; Ayman al-Zawahiri, head of Jihad Group in Egypt, and several other Islamic terrorist groups. Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders. ......................... The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. pbs.org That's PBS, not NRO. Do you realize Turkey is at least 95% Muslim? That it is a NATO member? That we have bases in it? How do we meet our NATO obligations and give OBL what he wants? Do you know of ANY other religion that claims a portion of the land surface of the earth as ITS and no one elses? Who? Do you regard that as something we should honor?" I don't care if it's because of US actions that the Iraqi state falls to civil war. If the Iraqis had the will, they could stop it, and if they don't, they won't. "The genii IS out of the bottle, like it or not. Only with extreme luck do you avoid terrorists with state power." It's time for a change of government (imo, of course). Even though the democrats have their problems, these last years have been SO bad (from my point of view), I would vote for any democrat- even a quasi republican one like Webb, just to repudiate the policy decisions of the last administration. After Bush I don't know how any republican has the temerity to talk about budgets. "We get a change of gov't, regardless of which party wins. GWB can't run. I would vote for ANY Republican rather than ANY Democrat I see. We are at WAR. GET THAT IN YOUR HEAD! In 1943 FDR spent 243% more than the gov't took in because the US was at war. Do you condemn him?"

To: epicure who wrote (61660)	8/7/2007 3:51:32 AM
From: Sully-	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 90947

<< "I feel so sorry for the poor Iraqis still in Iraq. Being a refugee has got to start to look good when things get as bad as they are now." >> Ya, just like refugees were going to stream out of Iraq in the millions in 2003 to avoid the massive slaughter of civilians during the carpet bombing, caught in the crossfire, etc. Or later on when the terrorist led "insurgency" began. Or when the "civil war" broke out. Or when the surge began. Oh wait! It never happened! I'm sure you'll gleefully announce the mass exodus of refugees when it does happen, right? Message 23763470