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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Road Walker who wrote (347439)	8/18/2007 11:07:06 AM
From: combjelly	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 1574854

"We always had that; I don't think we do anymore." It comes and goes. Many of the same issues were at the fore during the Gilded Age. en.wikipedia.org For the historical lesson impaired, the comparison isn't exact. There were many differences, for example the Democrats were all in favor of globalization and driving wages down to the low levels of Europe, while the Republicans were for protectionism and keeping wages high. But, there is a certain broad theme that is recognizable. The changes of the Gilded Age rippled through society until it resulted in the Great Depression. The biggest change that came out of that was the Great Wage Compression, which led to the America you remember. We accomplished great things during those years, and it was the most progressive time in our history. But the robber barons weren't content and they had the money to convince people that the Gilded Age was a better time. So here we are again. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Again, for the historical lesson impaired, the comparison isn't exact. We weren't walking down the road to fascism during the Gilded Age like we are now. That in and of itself means things will be different this time. And we weren't as rich and as powerful, either. The British Empire was still a going concern during the GA, France was very influential, along with Japan and Germany starting to step out onto the world stage.

To: Road Walker who wrote (347439)	8/18/2007 4:11:24 PM
From: tejek	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1574854

What's becoming clear to me is that we have neither the political or emotional will to recognize, much less take steps to correct our problems. Oil dependence is a perfect example. It's our achilles heel and our biggest opportunity to lead the world away from an imminent disaster. We can be the problem or the solution; and the solution is a huge business opportunity and as such a way to increase our standard of living. In the last 50 years, this country has gone through a great deal of social change, change that would have destroyed many societies. I think people have become afraid of change. I think that's a common theme with many Republicans. They want to maintain as much of the status quo as possible. And as a passing note......Americans move around a lot more than other peoples. Its not unusual for a European even now to be born, live, work and die all in the same place. To us, that appears to be a very quaint notion. Meanwhile all that moving around gives us what psychologists call anomie........we aren't as grounded as we could be. But what's seriously frightening is our acceptance of debt to maintain a standard of living without the production to back it up. The twin deficits and private debt. It's total denial. It will all have to be settled, and that settlement process will be painful. Yeah but that started not long after WW II. When we decided that we were good at military intervention, that's when American debt started to go through the roof. You may be right that the "Average American lives a standard of living that is far above his worth". But a big part of that is the vision and will to move forward with the next generation of opportunities. We always had that; I don't think we do anymore. Don't you think that's because Bush and to a lesser degree......Clinton.......had no vision of the future that excites? We should be talking about people visiting Mars and mining the asteroids and setting up a city on the moon......but then we don't have the money to do those things anymore.

To: Road Walker who wrote (347439)	8/20/2007 2:13:29 PM
From: Joe NYC	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 1574854

John, I hear that defeatism all the time now. An acquiescence to a lower US standard of living in the future. It freaks me out because it is so un-American. I'm 58 years old and this is new to me. The first thing you need to realize that there is an absolute standard of living and there is relative (US vs. the rest of the world). Most people don't know the difference between the 2, and because of that, are lead to all kind of fallacies. There is nothing inherent in an American that makes him better than a typical European or South Korean. In fact, some of the Asian countries have higher IQs. There used to be huge differences between the US standard of living and that of the rest of the world, but the main reason is the creativity and talents of people elswhere were oppressed by various socialistic mismanagement. Now that is going away. Chinese, other Asians, Eastern Europeans no longer have this albatros around their neck, so now they can fly free. That is a wonderful thing. They no longer live in as much of a poverty, which is also a wonderful thing. Their leap forward is not a setback for the US. Let me give you an example. Let's say there is a fictitious country out there (lets say Slovakia, to which I am a little partial). Suppose the US standard of living was 100%, let's say 20 years ago, and Slovakia was 40%. Now, 20 years later, the US may be 110% of the base, and Slovakia may be 60%. So now, Slovakia is 54%, rather than 40%. If you use the fallacy of looking at the relative standard of living, it is a 14% setback (lead has shrund from 60% to 46%, but in absolute term, it is a gain of 10%. Now what is it about an average Slovak that should still make him 46% poorer? On various comparisons of educational achievements, they score a bit above the US. Their markets are almost as free as the US, globalization makes it possible to transfer technologies. HP and Dell have some of their European centers there, Volkswagen is building their highest end car there (VW Toureg, Audi Q7, Porshe Cayenne), Samsung is building an LCD panel plant. AMD is building all of the microprocessors in Dresden, former East Germany (to stay on topic). As opposed this being defeatism, IMO, it is the final victory of America, as the rest of the world abondons their ill-fated socialistic experiments and adopts the concept of free enterprise. It works all around the globe, bringing solid results for people around the globe. So I say "cheers" to all that victory, you call it defeatism. Now, let me place the question differently. Would you prefer the situation where the rest of the world went instead to chains, starvation, just to increase the US lead in relative standard of living? Would you consider that to be a victory of some kind? Joe