As I suspected you have no factual basis for your claim.
Your chest pounding about how ‘glaringly and often wrong’ I have been, could not be substantiated with one single statement that was factually wrong. Not only not often but never if your ‘analysis’ is our source of information.
You take issue with my characterization and juxtapose that with your own so lets discuss that. Anyway I will discuss it from a reasoned and adult perspective you can do as you please.
You start with more vague self conflicting rhetoric about how much misery in Iraq is caused by the US.
You:”… that's just silly in today's context.”
I say: "We are not in Iraq to conquer Iraq, we are there to continue the struggle against tyranny and for liberty”.
Last I looked we are not in Iraq to conquer Iraq, do you have information to the contrary? … OK well why not just make some sneering noises instead. Oh, I see you did…
You say: ”Now, to put it precisely, that's just silly in today's context.”
hmmm
Me: "we are there to continue the struggle against tyranny and for liberty
You: ”We came to the rationale that we were "there to continue the struggle for liberty" very late.”
Me: weeee who, Ed? I’ve been protesting against Saddam’s brutal tyranny and the sanctions that exacerbated that situation since Bush 1
”You'll recall that justification was advanced after finding wmds, preventing mushroom clouds and protecting vital American interests didn't work out too well.”
I recall it was part of the general presentation from our government in the beginning, I recall the other justifications were not validated, and I am aware that it became a critical issue after the fall of Saddam. I recall that I never supported the justification that we were in imminent danger of attack from Iraq. I recall that I complained that we were targeting innocents with the sanctions and that was unjustified and in fact is an application of terrorism when our real enemy was Saddam.
So, your allegations/assumptions about my position on this are just wrong.
Me:” we are there to continue the struggle against tyranny and for liberty”.
Absolutely true. Are there other strategic, economic, political interests as well? Sure, which does not invalidate my interests in liberty and justice for all.
You:the rationale that we were "there to continue the struggle for liberty" very late.
You just agreed with me. So even though you and others came on board with this rationale very late, I did not and in any event you are contradicting yourself by labeling my comment wrong. It is true, it is absolutely true, and you just said so… even though you claim I am wrong about it.
”You must also know that our Bush Administration is no longer touting a free and democratic Iraq but rather a "stable Iraq" with not so many suicide bombers. So that is, as of yesterday, airhead thinking and very wrong. The facts and the current rhetoric simply won't support that.
I know that a liberal democracy was a real goal with no guarantees. I know that liberty for all is still a noble goal but that no one can give you guarantees Ed, you’ve got to want it, encourage it, when need be fight for it ‘liberty and justice for all’, or lose it even for yourself. I know, as I must know, that it is wrong to abandon people who are entrusted to you when you find out it isn’t going to turn into Eden. Personally, I never expected a switch to Western style secular Democracy and I definitely made it clear that I understood the nature of the various contenders for power in Iraq years ago. You know that and I know it, so you can just drop the act of labeling me with every kind of mythical bushism. What, do you think you are playing to an audience? How about mano y mano bud, unless you aren’t up to it. In which case I will expect you to continue with the name calling and misrepresentations.
You: But let's take a look at your next "wrong" statement. You say that with respect to what you've termed a "struggle against tyranny and for liberty, justice, and autonomous self rule" that the Iraqi are "a people who've shown their overwhelming interest in that."
It is a totally true statement Ed.
You:Most Iraqis have shown an "overwhelming interest" in liberty, justice and self rule for Iraqis like them and tyranny for all the rest.
The too things are not mutually exclusive and you have over stated the position of what most Iraqis want with a definite lack of credible evidence, quite to the contrary the evidence shows that most Iraqis would like a nation of peaceful coexistence. It's not unusual to find more personal power to be an attraction but to vote for universal justice as a common good. It’s beginning to look like you have a personal issue/confusion with liberty/tyranny.
Most Americans, most human beings strive to validate their views of life by increasing their influence and power over others. There is nothing wrong about my statement, simply your interpretation that it means Iraqis will all play nice and be happy like a good democracy… America for example where we imprison about 1.5 million citizens a year.
I have no problem understanding how people who’ve never known any lifestyle that wasn’t facilitated by brutal oppression would want liberty while facing the unfamiliar transitions with skepticism and with some struggles along the way, especially when there are active forces insisting on the opposite… you for example.
You:” government is rife with corruption, the Iraqi police forces and army have been repeatedly implicated in large scale and brutal killings of those of other sects and the sight of a uniformed Iraqi strikes fear into the hearts of many Iraqis.
True, although it is not a universally true comment there is certainly some corruption and abuse going on… Unlike anywhere else in the world, right Ed? It is unique in some regards but not with respect to human corruption.
And, finally, the "underpinnings of our great nation" have nothing to do with sending American soldiers into the lands of sovereign nations to use lethal force and free them from whatever we consider unacceptable systems of governance.
Ooops. Fortunately that isn’t the case nor does it represent anything I’ve said. Another strawman created by you. Did you teach strawman a lesson this time? I hope you whipped him good so you can leave him behind next time. Better if you stop playing with your dolls and return to man to man discussions dude.
So there you have it. In one short paragraph you use some heroic phrases…
Yes and completely true statement.
”…to distort the true picture of what it is that's happening in Iraq and what it is that we're doing there.
Your mistake, I have distorted nothing. I have provided long treatments on this thread and others describing a balanced picture including horrific conditions, dangerous risks, and potential outcomes that are not in the interests of the US in Iraq. I have considered the suffering and destruction and the various potential outcomes for all to see. And I have commented on my hopes that things could work out better with our support and encouragement, which seems to annoy you to no end.
You do it in a way that is insidiously damaging because it confuses great notions with great deeds
No I don’t. Sorry but that’s just another empty mean spirited attack, Ed.
”.. and you ignore the fact that over the last half a decade all the efforts we've made there have resulted in a war torn nation, divided against itself, with poor security for its people, little work and a seething civil war with no end in sight.
I have ignored no such thing. I have studied the history of Iraq and commented on this thread with regards to the various influences that have contributed to war, tyranny, and oppression of the people. If you have not seen those posts, I find that odd considering your claims to know so much about my views. If you have seen those posts, well then you are simply lying.
I will note that you give us total responsibility for the nation divided against itself in this passage but when I mention the overwhelming vote for a representative government by the Iraqi people you contradict yourself rather blatantly.
”
That is the worst "wrong" of all. Ed
Since you demonstrate the need to continually misrepresent others to justify your own self righteous view point Ed, I can see why you have to demonize everyone out side your frightened little cocoon.
But you don't offer much in the way of an honorable discussion. Your choice.
Best regards,
gem |
