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To: arun gera who wrote (25157)	11/13/2007 8:36:20 AM
From: zamboz	Respond to of 217689

Thanks for the thoughtful post, Arun. Cultures that have been winners economically have pretty much ignored the indiscretions of the past and looked to the future. Those struggling to maintain an existence have looked to the past. Each needs a bit of what the other has. One needs education, the other opportunity. Western countries have been insensitive even to their own people. After the US Civil War, northerners pretty much moved on and forgot. The South, mired in poverty, remembered for a hundred years plus. Though great goals were achieved in that war, the important business of reconciliation was dismally botched. Not just politically. Until the 1920's, a crate costing $5 to ship from New York to Atlanta would cost $25 to ship in the opposite direction. In 19th century Great Britain, rural Scots were removed from the countryside so that more sheep could be raised for the newly mechanized textile industry.

To: arun gera who wrote (25157)	11/13/2007 8:47:49 PM
From: Maurice Winn	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 217689

Arun, you racists see things in terms of tribe and a dog eat dog zero-sum game of conquest. We Libertarians see things in terms of freedom, self-determination and mutual exchange of value which is created by people who think, among consenting adults who own their property in their own name [their property including themselves]. You kleptocrats see humans as state-owned serfs to be disposed of and controlled by whoever contrives to get power. It's not convenience which makes me look towards the future rather than the past. You have the idea that I'm defending the British Empire because I'm a white male with some English ancestors. My point is that not all empires or people are alike. Humans are not fungible. Though TJ the great racist from Hong Kong [and Yiwu the Mad] thinks Chinese all think the same like a swarm of mindless clones. The past cannot be rewound, other than for living people. There's a tendency for people to think of lineages in ancestry as though a group of people propagated down the ages, whereas it's actually a spreading across the gene pool as you go backwards, x2, x4, x8, x16, x32 etc and if you have done the slightest amount of mathematics you will know that the numbers soon exceed all living things which have ever lived on Earth. The past had little value. Stealing from recent immigrants to NZ from China who are forced to work [to buy food etc] and pay taxes to give the money to my cousin's offspring to right imagined wrongs from 150 years ago is silly. Nobody wronged is alive. Apartheid doesn't work. DNA messes it up. Young people are always hopping the fence [by biological imperative for good gene pool creation]. So the "tribe" is soon spread all over the place. They need to either stop people breeding outside the tribe [impossible] or determine ownership of property to be for selected people only, like a self-perpetuating politburo of power and possession. Where collective ownership is an issue, tradable citizenships or property rights should be issued. It works for corporations and it would work for tribes/countries/families etc. What made pre-20th century life barbaric was the biological imperative of women and men getting randy and having 10 babies per woman [in the normal course of events - accidents, disease, DNA failure and other problems cutting the numbers down quite often]. To survive, people had to take possession of territory. Chimps do it. Humans as chimpoid derivatives had to too. Humans had to breed like mad to get sufficient numbers to not only defend, but conquer. That was just how it was. You might think there wasn't carnage, but even a cursory glance at history shows you are wrong. History is a litany of conflict for power. It's carrying on right now. Libertarian votes are tiny. Ron Paul is unlikely to be POTUS. If he is, then Congress and the Supreme Court will stop freedom in its tracks. It's only a very small proportion of people who like freedom. They like it for themselves, but end up handing over theirs in exchange for taking it away from other people. <Jews use the holocaust to try to fight the forces of dispersion that are scattering jews and diluting their culture and gene pool. > That's when they aren't preparing blood for their rituals. How come you give Moslems a capital letter, but Jews get only lower case? Heck, you even gave Europeans a capital. Of course there were injustices by Europeans. You seem to think I'm trying to hide them or pretend they didn't happen or something. They were subject to the same problem of numbers and territory as others. I don't care and I don't feel at all guilty for what somebody else did. I'm more concerned about today's injustices, in which I am robbed daily by megalomaniac politicians and their supporters. I don't see why you think I should care that some Indians had a problem with British 100 years ago. A thug in the 4th form threatened to cane me if I didn't get in the top 10 in the class in history and geography. History was irrelevant bunk then and it still is. He taught me an important lesson = authoritarian thugs need to be killed! I hope he died a painful death. I wonder if he had any idea that he was an excellent history teacher. A living example of power-mad megalomania, cruelty, and suppression of individuals. I note he was funded by the state. Mqurice