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To: tom pope who wrote (97119)	2/22/2008 10:13:42 PM
From: Peter van Steennis	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 206192

Tom: Its already been PROVEN. TTFN Peter

To: tom pope who wrote (97119)	2/23/2008 6:05:33 AM
From: Area51	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 206192

It's difficult to know exactly what went on during his time on the Mekong. But it seems unlikely that both his accounts of being complicit in war atrocities and his accounts of being a bonafide war-hero are both fair characterizations. Although perhaps politicians should be respected for their ability to spin data in various ways to achieve various objectives? snopes.com

To: tom pope who wrote (97119)	2/23/2008 5:13:35 PM
From: diana g	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 206192

<OT> Swift Boat Vets / Kerry ----------------- First of all I apologize to everyone for having brought this up. It is a discussion which is certainly off topic. I only mentioned the SBVs in a passing reference in my statement about T Boone Pickens and did not expect all this vehement reaction. ---- I would be happy to just drop the subject after this post and I hope that others will also do so. There is clearly a case to be made both for and against the SWVs and the admirableness of Kerry's military service. But while we all enjoy a little off-topic discussion now and then, pursuing this at length here is burdensome to the majority who would prefer that the conversation remain largely on-topic. ---- If anyone would like to castigate me via PM for thinking well of the SWVs or poorly of Kerry, feel free. But please let's drop it as a public discussion out of respect for the true purpose of the BBR. In response to messages such as Tommasso's <<"...Diana, you did not see any of the events and know nothing whatever about this. ...">> I would like to ask if those who take the position that I should not have an opinion on this because I was not personally present have opinions themselves about the Nazi holocaust or any other event in history which they did not personally observe. It is ridiculous to assert that only persons with first-hand knowledge of events should form opinions. Would you say to a trial judge "You cannot form an opinion and make a judgment on the case at hand because you have only indirect knowledge of the facts."? Of course not. The position that I should not have an opinion is idiotic. My opinion of Kerry's military service and its presentation in support of his candidacy was greatly influenced at the time of the last election by the opinions expressed by several of my uncles and their associates who were/are veterans of that war. This morning I called my Uncle Boo to ask what he thought about Kerry and the Swift Boat Vets now, looking back on the controversy. I wrote down his comments and present them here: ---- Obviously both sides had axes to grind. Considering the statements made by Kerry and his supporters and at the SBVs' statements, I'd say there were very few people involved who could be called disinterested observers. ---- On Kerry's side, the fellow who stated he was saved when Kerry's boat came back to pick him up under fire seemed believable. And the fact that Kerry was there in Vietnam at all in the first place makes him look better than Bush. And I think a lot of the animosity toward him from his detractors stemmed from his anti-war statements after he was out. ---- I wouldn't say his silver & bronze stars were undeserved, but neither would I say we should make much of his getting them. [Uncle Boo was in a reconnaissance unit of the 1st cavalry in Vietnam & got a silver star and a number of other medals himself, all of which he disparages as meaningless] These things are handed out partially on merit but there are lots of other influences on who gets medals and what medals they get. Rank, friendships and political connections inside and outside the military play a big role at times. Kerry had family connections. I'm not saying he was undeserving. I don't know. But I do say that lots of silver stars and other awards get handed out which aren't deserved, and lots of deserving people don't get them. I would not automatically think anyone must have deserved a medal if he got it. I would not make any judgment of Kerry, or anyone, based on awards and medals for heroic conduct they received or didn't receive. -- The purple hearts and connected transfer are what convinced me Kerry was untrustworthy. A purple heart can be authorized for any injury or wound received in the course of an interaction with the enemy. Not just getting shot or something, but any injury. Like somebody shoots from a distance and hits nothing but you jump in a ditch and bruise your elbow. Anything. But not every injury got a ph, although it may have been technically within the definition of an injury received during an interaction with the enemy. Normally if a person was wounded and wound up in a hospital or morgue, there was a system in place which put in the recommendation for a purple heart automatically. But for most minor injuries the person just went to a medic or unit doc rather than go to a hospital, and under those circumstances no purple heart recommendation was made unless the 'wounded' person made a special point of asking for it. Almost no one would. But if someone insisted they wanted their ph for their bruised elbow then a clerk would put in the paperwork. Kerry had three purple hearts and at least 2 of them were for very minor injuries for which he did not go to a hospital. I don't know if he actually went to a hospital or not for the remaining one. He wouldn't have been put in for purple hearts for at least 2 of those injuries without asking for a ph. He had to request an administration officer or clerk put in the recommendation in each case. Then, with only a few months in on his tour of duty he digs up this obscure regulation that allows him to be transfered away from combat because he has 3 purple hearts. When that information came out I asked everyone I spoke with who was a veteran whether they had ever heard of this '3 purple hearts and you're out' rule and no one had. I'm not saying it didn't exist, but that it was obscure. Three separate serious injuries would be very unusual. In the course of getting them you would probably be maimed or disabled to the extent that returning to a combat unit wouldn't be likely. Anyone returning to a combat unit after 3 serious injuries which hospitalized them was going to be a rare thing which I suppose the 3ph rule was meant to prevent. But in a combat unit of any kind you are getting hurt in minor ways all the time. If I had gotten a purple heart for every minor injury under fire, I could use them now to ballast my boat. The same would be true for anyone in a combat unit. The obvious intention of the '3ph rule' is that soldiers with 3 serious injuries have no further exposure, but Kerry used that rule together with his very minor injuries to get himself out of a combat unit after only a small portion of his tour of duty. It seems clear that he planned that. He found out about this obscure '3ph rule' and schemed to get out of the war using it. ---- Finding a loophole to slip through like that might seem like smart thinking to some people. But remember that this all came up in the context of Kerry running for president and presenting himself as a leader with his military experience backing that claim up. What Kerry did in Vietnam was slip out the side door during the fight leaving others behind. Leaving his comrades in arms behind. We don't do that. In the incident where Kerry was described as having gone back to pick up the man in the water under fire, that was the right thing to do. That is the act of a good man. But the trust and respect which that action seems to deserve is put in question by the '3 purple hearts rule' scheme. Whatever the truth of the good things Kerry is purported to have done in Vietnam, the 3ph scheme is right there in black & white. Knowing the truth of it doesn't depend on accepting the word of witnesses or supporters or detractors of Kerry. The fact of it is plain, and is more than enough for me to say "I don't trust him." Kerry may have been a mixture of the heroic soldier and the self-serving coward. It could be that he did the courageous things claimed and also the 3ph scheme. No person is all one thing. But the 3ph thing, by itself, is reason to disqualify Kerry from leadership regardless of whatever other qualities he might have. ---- Someone could say Kerry's war record was better than Bush's, and I'd agree, but Bush wasn't presenting himself as a war hero. If Kerry had said "I ducked out of Vietnam on a technicality because it was too hot for me. But I am the best man to be president." I think I would have a lot more respect for him than I do. But he didn't do that. Although I think the Swift Boat Vets went over the top with distortions and partial truths, if they hadn't objected to Kerry's self-promotion on the basis of claimed war-hero status then his war record might not have been subject to such close scrutiny. So while the SBVs were far from being as pure as the driven snow in their conduct, and they are guilty of misrepresentations etc, I would also say that they performed a valuable service. And that although Bush would not have been my first choice for president if I could have chosen among all the citizenry, that purple heart scheme convinced me that Kerry was a worse choice, and I remain convinced of that. **************************** That's my Uncle's statement on Kerry & the SBVs. I plan to not address this subject again because of its Off-Topic nature. If anyone would like to tell my uncle that he doesn't know what he's talking about and should not have an opinion because he was not actually in the boat with Kerry, PM me and I'll pass along the message. Regards, diana