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Politics : Formerly About Advanced Micro Devices -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?


To: i-node who wrote (389682)6/8/2008 11:32:34 AM
From: steve harris  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1575876
 
They don't have the backbone to say anything, probably because the democrats have gone where no man has gone before...



To: i-node who wrote (389682)6/8/2008 12:25:51 PM
From: bentway  Respond to of 1575876
 
Cite one untrue thing in my post. Just name one.

Are you wingnuts allergic to the truth?



To: i-node who wrote (389682)6/8/2008 12:29:16 PM
From: bentway  Respond to of 1575876
 
Puffing up John McCain, POW

by Ted Rall

“A proven leader, and a man of integrity,” the New York Post called John McCain in its editorial endorsement. “A naval aviator shot down over North Vietnam and held as a POW, McCain knew that freedom was his for the taking. All he had to do was denounce his country. He refused–and, as a consequence, suffered years of unrelenting torture.”

This standard summary of McCain’s five and a half years in the Hanoi Hilton, repeated in thousands of media accounts during his 2000 campaign and again this election year, is the founding myth of his political career. The tale of John McCain, War Hero prompts a lot of people turned off by his politics–liberals and traditional conservatives alike–to support him. Who cares that he “doesn’t really understand economics”? He’s got a great story to tell.

Scratch the surface of McCain’s captivity narrative, however, and a funny thing happens: his heroism blows away like the rust from a vintage POW bracelet.

In the fall of 1967 McCain was flying bombing runs over North Vietnam from the U.S.S. Oriskany, an aircraft carrier in the South China Sea. On October 26, the 31-year-old pilot was part of a 20-plane squadron assigned to destroy infrastructure in the North Vietnamese capital. He flew his A-4 Skyhawk over downtown Hanoi toward his target, a power plant. As he pulled up after releasing his bombs, his fighter jet was hit by a surface-to-air missile. A wing came off. McCain’s plane plunged into Truc Bach Lake.

Mai Van On, a 50-year-old resident of Hanoi, watched the crash and left the safety of his air-raid shelter to rescue him. Other Vietnamese tried to stop him. “Why do you want to go out and rescue our enemy?” they yelled. Ignoring his countrymen, On grabbed a pole and swam to the spot where McCain’s plane had gone down in 16 feet of water. McCain had managed to free himself from the wrecked plane but was stuck underwater, ensnared by his parachute. On used his pole to untangle the ropes and pull the semi-conscious pilot to the surface. McCain was in bad shape, having broken his arm and a leg in several places.

McCain is lucky the locals didn’t finish him off. U.S. bombs had killed hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese civilians, many in Hanoi. Ultimately between one and two million innocents would be shredded, impaled, blown to bits and dissolved by American bombs. Now that one of their tormentors had fallen into their hands, they had a rare chance to get even. “About 40 people were standing there,” On later recalled. “They were about to rush him with their fists and stones. I asked them not to kill him. He was beaten for a while before I could stop them.” He was turned over to local policemen, who transferred him to the military.

What if one of the hijackers who destroyed the World Trade Center had somehow crash-landed in the Hudson River? How long would he have lasted? Would anyone have risked his life to rescue him?

An impolite question: If a war is immoral, can those who fight in it–even those who demonstrate courage–be heroes? If the answer is yes, was Reagan wrong to honor the SS buried at Bitburg? No less than Iraq, Vietnam was an undeclared, illegal war of aggression that did nothing to keep America safe. Tens of millions of Americans felt that way. Millions marched against the war; tens of thousands of young men fled the country to avoid the draft. McCain, on the other hand, volunteered.

McCain knew that what he was doing was wrong. Three months before he fell into that Hanoi lake, he barely survived when his fellow sailors accidentally fired a missile at his plane while it was getting ready to take off from his ship. The blast set off bombs and ordnance across the deck of the aircraft carrier. The conflagration, which took 24 hours to bring under control, killed 132 sailors. A few days later, a shaken McCain told a New York Times reporter in Saigon: “Now that I’ve seen what the bombs and the napalm did to the people on our ship, I’m not so sure that I want to drop any more of that stuff on North Vietnam.”

Yet he did.

“I am a war criminal,” McCain said on “60 Minutes” in 1997. “I bombed innocent women and children.” Although it came too late to save the Vietnamese he’d killed 30 years earlier, it was a brave statement. Nevertheless, he smiles agreeably as he hears himself described as a “war hero” as he arrives at rallies in a bus marked “No Surrender.”

McCain’s tragic flaw: He knows the right thing. He often sets out to do the right thing. But he doesn’t follow through. We saw McCain’s weak character in 2000, when the Bush campaign defeated him in the crucial South Carolina primary by smearing his family. Placing his presidential ambitions first, he swallowed his pride, set aside his honor, and campaigned for Bush against Al Gore. It came up again in 2005, when McCain used his POW experience as a POW to convince Congress to pass, and Bush to sign, a law outlawing torture of detainees at Guantánamo and other camps. But when Bush issued one of his infamous “signing statements” giving himself the right to continue torturing–in effect, negating McCain’s law–he remained silent, sucking up to Bush again.

McCain’s North Vietnamese captors demanded that he confess to war crimes. “Every two hours,” according to a 2007 profile in the Arizona Republic, “one guard would hold McCain while two others beat him. They kept it up for four days…His right leg, injured when he was shot down, was horribly swollen. A guard yanked him to his feet and threw him down. His left arm smashed against a bucket and broke again.”

McCain later recalled that he was at the point of suicide. But he was no Jean Moulin, the French Resistance leader who refused to talk under torture, and killed himself. According to “The Nightingale’s Song,” a book by Robert Timberg, “[McCain] looked at the louvered cell window high above his head, then at the small stool in the room.” He took off his dark blue prison shirt, rolled it like a rope, draped one end over his shoulder near his neck, began feeding the other end through the louvers.” He was too slow. A guard entered and pulled him away from the window.

I’ve never been tortured. I have no idea what I’d do. Of course, I’d like to think that I could resist or at least commit suicide before giving up information. Odds are, however, that I’d crack. Most people do. And so did McCain. “I am a black criminal and I have performed the deeds of an air pirate,” McCain wrote in his confession. “I almost died and the Vietnamese people saved my life, thanks to the doctors.”

It wasn’t the first time McCain broke under pressure. After his capture, wrote the Republic, “He was placed in a cell and told he would not receive any medical treatment until he gave military information. McCain refused and was beaten unconscious. On the fourth day, two guards entered McCain’s cell. One pulled back the blanket to reveal McCain’s injured knee. ‘It was about the size, shape and color of a football,’ McCain recalled. Fearful of blood poisoning that would lead to death, McCain told his captors he would talk if they took him to a hospital.”

McCain has always been truthful about his behavior as a POW, but he has been more than willing to allow others to lie on his behalf. “A proven leader, and a man of integrity,” The New York Post says, and he’s happy to take it. “All he had to do was denounce his country. He refused…” Not really. He did denounce his country. But he didn’t demand a retraction.

It’s the old tragic flaw: McCain knows what he ought to do. He starts to do the right thing. But John McCain is a weak man who puts his career goals first.

Ted Rall is the author of the new book “Silk Road to Ruin: Is Central Asia the New Middle East?,” an in-depth prose and graphic novel analysis of America’s next big foreign policy challenge.

© 2008 Ted Rall



To: i-node who wrote (389682)6/8/2008 12:38:00 PM
From: bentway  Respond to of 1575876
 
On John McCain-WHAT Exactly is a War Hero?

salon.glenrose.net

Is it a man who, after coming back to his faithful, crippled wife who waited for him while he was in POW prison, immediately started cheating on her with other women and then dumped her for a rich, much younger bimbo?

Is it a man who even now refuses to give the public open access to POW/MIA records? As "You are Being Lied to" says on p 88

Since McCain himself, a downed Navy pilot, was a prisoner in Hanoi for five and a half years,his staunch resistance to laying open the POW/MIA records has baffled colleagues and others who have followed his career. ... Literally thousands of documents that would otherwise have been declassified long ago have been legislated into secrecy. ..All the Pentagon debriefings of the prisoners who returned from Vietnam are now classified and closed to the public under a statute enacted in the 1990s with McCain's backing. He says this is to protect the privacy of former POWs and gives it as his reason for not making public his own debriefing. But the law allows a returned prisoner to view his own file or to designate another person to view it.

In the book "Faith of My Fathers" "

...the Arizona senator repeatedly expresses guilt and disgrace at having broken under torture and given the North Vietnamese a taped confession, broadcast over the loudspeakers, saying eh was a war criminal who had, among other acts, bombed a school....

But how would McCain's forced confession alone explain his endless campaign against releasing MIA/POW information?

Even some misguided *liberals* seem to fall for that war hero baloney. From Dennis Perrin. Asked on Colmes talk show if McCain was a war hero...

Well," I said, hesitating a moment, for I knew my answer would elicit some hostility, "I'm not sure how heroic it is to incinerate Vietnamese children."

"OHHHHHHHHHH!!!!" was the collective reply.

Colmes told me I was tasteless. Barrymore said I should be ashamed of myself. Bales puffed out his chest yet again (he did this a lot during the three-hour show) and demanded to know whether I considered McCain a war criminal.

"No. Not personally. McCain didn't create the policy. The war criminals were in Washington."

Still, I added, that doesn't exonerate McCain for dropping bombs on the Vietnamese.

"Oh!" squeaked Barrymore. "What should he have dropped instead -- birthday presents?"

The slagging went on for a little while longer. Here I was, in the middle of three Clinton liberals, reminding them why McCain ended up in a POW cell. Not that I supported torture or reprisal beatings, but some context was in order. The Vietnamese didn't sneak into the States and kidnap McCain from his snug bed. The three couldn't care less. What's more, they defended the U.S. bombing of Vietnam, at least so long as McCain was doing the killing. It was a handy reminder of how crazed liberals become when they taste a little blood.

And why would Vietnam Vets Spit on McCain? A trip down memory lane.

Not the least of the issues that have military groups spitting mad is the Arizona senator's voting record on veterans' issues. Thomas Burch is a Washington attorney and chairman of the National Vietnam and Gulf War Veterans Coalition, a federation of 102 veterans' groups. Burch tells Insight, "McCain forgot the veterans, and you don't have to search too hard to see where he's dropped the ball." For instance, "McCain would not cosponsor the 1984 Agent Orange Bill, the 1992 Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, the 1996 Missing Persons Personnel Act, the 1998 Persian Gulf Health Care Act or the 1999 Bring Them Home Alive Bill. He did cosponsor the 1991 Omnibus Agent Orange Bill, but at that point there was no struggle, it was a done deal. Back in the 1980s when we really needed him he wasn't ...

Charles Bates, director of Veterans for Government Accountability, a government watchdog group, tells Insight that "during a three-day seminar on the Vietnam War at the Center for Vietnam War Studies at Texas Tech University, I and another POW activist, Joe Jordan, spoke to Bui Tin about McCain's treatment in Hanoi. Tin said, `No, McCain was never tortured. He was too important. We called him the prince. He received special treatment.'"

The passion is strong among these veterans, and Bates gives no quarter: "When Tin testified at the 1992 hearings," he says, "McCain ran down to the floor and threw his arms around this guy. Everyone knew that this was the guy that had reportedly tortured him. Try and imagine someone from the Bataan death march throwing his arms around his captor. You can't. So this is why there is concern among veterans that he really may have collaborated with the enemy. I And there appears to be evidence that he did, including his own admissions in the May 14, 1973, U.S. News & World Report":

But Burch says it was McCain's conduct during 1992 hearings of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs that turned many Vietnam War veterans against him. "When they held the hearings, it was McCain who handled the family members in a very rough manner, reducing one woman to tears. There are a lot of folks who compared him to Jane Fonda after he hugged Bui Tin, a former North Vietnamese army officer and interrogator/torturer of American prisoners of war, or POWs, who testified at the hearings. Symbolically, it's like seeing Fonda sitting on the antiaircraft gun. If you think that these people are still holding some of our men, as many of these families do, that's not the kind of photo that's going to endear you to him. I don't care what his reason was for doing it. It was an outrage."

McGrath suggests McCain could put all this ugliness to rest by requesting that the transcripts of his postcaptivity debriefing be released. Those transcripts long have been classified, but in 1996 Republican Sen. Robert Smith of New Hampshire moved legislation through Congress effectively making the portions of the debriefings that dealt with other military personnel still unaccounted for available for review. In 1999 Smith managed further to modify the legislation to make it retroactive for the Cold War, Korean and Vietnam debriefings concerning men left behind. The legislation sailed through despite attempts by those no one would name to prevent declassification. The McCain campaign has not returned Insight's calls to ask about these matters.

According to one Capitol Hill insider, "The chances of anyone actually seeing these records is a million-to-one, but if John McCain requested his records I'm sure they'd release them to him." To date that request has not been made. There also appears to be no chance of releasing any records held by the Vietnamese. According to Bill Bell, former chief of the U.S. Office for POW/MIA Affairs, "In May of 1993 I attended a meeting in Hanoi with John McCain, Pete Peterson, U.S. ambassador to Vietnam and ex-POW. McCain and Peterson were very interested in getting an agreement from the Vietnamese that the records of the former POWs would never be made public."



To: i-node who wrote (389682)6/9/2008 9:30:15 AM
From: Taro  Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 1575876
 
I disagree!!!
But wait, am I a liberal?

Taro



To: i-node who wrote (389682)6/10/2008 1:20:43 AM
From: tejek  Read Replies (2) | Respond to of 1575876
 
I don't who John McCain is but I've heard enough of his infamous jokes to know that if he was a POW, he learned little about tolerance. I think his treatment by Bush was terrible and yet, he kisses up to him...suggesting a very weak man. I think someone had it right when they say McCain sets out to do things right but seems to get lost along the way.

A Vietnam vets site critical of McCain:

vietnamveteransagainstjohnmccain.com



To: i-node who wrote (389682)6/10/2008 11:29:00 AM
From: Alighieri  Read Replies (4) | Respond to of 1575876
 
I thought Parsons' post was highly offensive.

And I would love to see which of the other liberals on this thread agree with him in his characterization.


The smearing of a war veteran is a shameful thing...it is wrong to do that to mccain. I also remember several of the right wingers on the thread pile on when the swift boaters were campaigning to destroy kerry's good name.

Al