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To: The Reaper who wrote (163062)11/9/2008 5:09:50 PM
From: Dan3Respond to of 306849
 
Re: Redistribution is not going to contribute to economic recovery one bit.

Sure it will. Wait and see.



To: The Reaper who wrote (163062)11/9/2008 5:21:35 PM
From: neolibRead Replies (1) | Respond to of 306849
 
Redistribution is not going to contribute to economic recovery one bit.

Are saying that you don't think Keynesian economics has any validity in times of recession? I'm not a great fan of Keynesian economics, but that is primarily because politicians use it too much when we are NOT in recessions. When we are in recessions, it does have utility IMO.



To: The Reaper who wrote (163062)11/9/2008 6:52:27 PM
From: PerspectiveRespond to of 306849
 
I hate to step into this debate, but: I think it depends upon the circumstance. In the 1970s, when we were faced with supply constraints on delivering what the populous needed, supply side economics (encouraging supply growth via investment tax breaks) works well. However, this is not the 1970s at all. We don't face a demand-push inflation. We face plummeting aggregate demand due to the loss of debt-based consumption.

There are only a few solutions:
1. Try to figure out how to keep the debt growing among those that were consuming on debt before.
2. Redistribute the cost of the public sector toward the wealthy end of the spectrum in order to give tax breaks to restore consumption among those who were consuming on debt before.
3. Figure out how to make those with excess income consume enough other crud to make up for the lost consumption by those who were consuming on debt before. (virtually impossible - the wealthy can only dine out so many times per day, drive so many cars, own so many houses, clothes, etc.)
4. Figure out how to engage in new production enterprises to boost the incomes of those who were consuming on debt before.

I don't think supply side economics does any of this. Bottom line is that we have a gaping hole in aggregate demand, and giving tax breaks to the wealthy (who have little marginal propensity to spend) is one of the least effective means of implementing stimulus.

I don't like these ideas - they're just the only ones that I can think of to address the quagmire we're stuck in.

How would you propose that we replace the gaping hole in aggregate demand? Public or private sector solutions, either one? I'll preemptively note that the private sector hasn't done squat for finding alternative means of employment for most of the middle class, other than to suggest that they accept minimum wage service jobs. The private sector has been too g*dd*mn busy shipping all the means of design and production overseas to Asia to worry a jot about inventing new industry here.

Hopefully, if this bear has his way, I'll be one of the few actually trying to build a new industry here someday soon. The bear market has to finish taking the wealth away from those who have managed it so foolishly, and redistributing it toward the few who have acted prudently...

`BC



To: The Reaper who wrote (163062)11/9/2008 7:08:11 PM
From: Lizzie TudorRespond to of 306849
 
Redistribution is not going to contribute to economic recovery one bit.

What policies do you consider redistribution?

I ask, because the "redistribution" platforms that republicans try to put forth (it is one of their talking points) are based on a lie. Right now wealthy individuals and corps are "redistributed" an enormous amt of taxpayer dollars, iow the wealthy pay less, and take more, from our system than the poorer, younger groups. The elderly are the most egregious example of this, with corporate welfare a high #2, or maybe corp welfare has moved up lately.

The people who pay the most in our system are the under 100K wageearners who pay into fica, federal state and sales taxes. Nobody is bailing out them. So I would say that recalibrating the redistribution that has occurred these past few years would help a lot.



To: The Reaper who wrote (163062)11/9/2008 7:30:07 PM
From: bentwayRead Replies (2) | Respond to of 306849
 
Right-wing media feeds its post-election anger

RIGHT WING: “The game has begun,” Rush Limbaugh told his radio audience of 15 million to 20 million last week.

Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity dive shamelessly in, talking about the 'Obama recession' and other partisan lines.
By JAMES RAINEY, On The Media
November 9, 2008

You have to give Rush Limbaugh a perverse kind of credit. At least when he is demonizing Barack Obama, fabricating Obama policies, blaming Obama for single-handedly causing the recession and the stock market crash, he doesn't pretend to be fair.

Opening his first post-election rant against the president-elect, Limbaugh launched in with a certain relish. "The game," he told his radio listeners, "has begun."

Sean Hannity, on the other hand, insisted on feigning a post-election detente, telling his Fox News television audience last week, "I want Barack Obama to succeed."

Didn't he think anyone would notice that, just a moment later, he was back parroting the failed campaign argument that Obama is a "mystery"?

"I fear [this] is the guy that has these radical associations 20 years ago," Hannity added, an odd way of demonstrating support for the new commander in chief.

A healthy skepticism is not only the media's right but its obligation. Indeed, commentators at many mainstream outlets -- including the Los Angeles Times, Washington Post and Wall Street Journal -- have already argued that Obama's best bet to succeed will be if he hews to a centrist path.

But many on the losing end of last week's election want to hold on to their anger. And there are those in the media -- led by the likes of Limbaugh and Hannity -- only too ready to feed that animus, along with their own ratings.

"The Obama recession is in full swing, ladies and gentlemen," Limbaugh told his radio audience of 15 million to 20 million on Thursday. "Stocks are dying, which is a precursor of things to come. This is an Obama recession. Might turn into a depression."

Apparently the tanking of the real estate market, record losses in the auto industry, and massive failures in the banking and investment industry have very little to do with our problems. The economic system is collapsing, Rush wants us to know, because it anticipates the tax increases Obama has pledged on capital gains and for the highest income earners.

But maybe that shouldn't be so surprising, because radio's Biggest Big Man also assures us that the Democrat welcomes "economic chaos" because it gives him "greater opportunity for expanded government." In a time when the nation calls out for cool leadership and rational discussion, Limbaugh stirs the caldron, a tendency he proved in a particularly grotesque way last week when he accused Obama's party of plotting a government takeover of 401(k) retirement plans.

"They're going to take your 401(k), put it in the Social Security trust fund, whatever the hell that is," Limbaugh woofed. "Trust fund, my rear end."

A slight problem with Limbaugh's report: Obama and the Democrats have proposed no such thing.

The proposal, in fact, emanated from a single economist, one of many experts testifying to a congressional committee.


The president-elect has thus far shown as much interest in taking over your 401(k) as he has in moving the capital to Nairobi. (If you look hard, you might find that one somewhere out there in the blogosphere, too.)

To broadcast such a report -- so drained of context as to constitute a lie -- would be a shameless act at any time. But Limbaugh needlessly stirred the fears of the millions he holds in his thrall -- making the 401(k) thievery sound like nearly a done deal. Shameless.

Hannity and Limbaugh filleted Obama's selection as chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel, in a way that exposed their partisan gamesmanship.

Mainstream newspapers have filed plenty of unflinching accounts of Emanuel's tough, occasionally ruthless tactics as a Democratic congressional leader and onetime operative in the Clinton White House. That assessment of bare-knuckle partisanship Hannity seized on. But it wouldn't do to report another aspect of Emanuel's record -- his Clintonesque bent for the political center.

So the Fox-man simply created a new persona for Emanuel as, you guessed it, "one of the hardest left-wing radicals on the left."

Ever open-minded, Hannity concluded, "I think they're going to overreach, and I think we're going to see the person that I think Barack Obama is. I think he is hard, hard left."

Then, I kid you not, Hannity ended with this pledge: "We'll see. We'll give him an opportunity."

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham apparently didn't get the memo requiring Obama's opponents to sink immediately and mindlessly into rank partisanship.

The South Carolina senator, one of Sen. John McCain's closest allies in his bid for the presidency, praised Obama's selection of Emanuel as "a wise choice." He added that the new chief of staff could be a tough partisan, but was also "honest, direct and candid" and willing to "work to find common ground where it exists."

Perhaps Hannity, Limbaugh and the rest of those intent on poisoning the soil before bipartisanship can take root might recall words of wisdom from Brit Hume, a veteran newsman who is close to leaving the Fox anchor desk for semi-retirement.

The problem with the accusations of Obama being "dangerous" and "radical," Hume said on election night, "was that it just didn't fit with the man you saw before your eyes."


Rainey is a Times staff writer.