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To: MulhollandDrive who wrote (168550)	12/3/2008 12:49:12 AM
From: tejek	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 306849

....it's only because the construction jobs lost as a result of the housing collapse (not immigration policy) have illegals just begun to make their way back to mexico (no jobs)...this was obviously concentrated in the SW, special emphasis on CA....explain how raising the minimum wage helps employment with rampant illegal immigration still willing to take jobs for less money.....who pay little or no taxes let me guess... make them all 'legal'??? If you raise the minimum wage to a level where its a living wage, then legals [whites et al] can afford to take on the jobs. Right now, the only people who can afford to work at minimum wage are kids living with their parents and illegals who live ten to a one bedroom apt.

To: MulhollandDrive who wrote (168550)	12/3/2008 11:38:34 AM
From: neolib	Respond to of 306849

explain how raising the minimum wage helps employment with rampant illegal immigration still* willing to take jobs for less money.....who pay little or no taxes* You don't seem to know much about the dynamics of the lower end of the labor market. It works like this: Manual labor Ag jobs have 1) Low respect (partly a racial thing) 2) poor working conditions (try it yourself if you doubt this) and 3) poor pay. Prior to 9/11, there was a plentiful supply of labor looking for such jobs, so wages were very near legal minimums, and indeed, could drop below (for obvious reasons). Shockingly, whites around here expect to only work 8 hours a day, and be in walking condition at the end of their shift, and have enough pay in their pockets to have a roof over their heads at night, a reasonable car, and a reasonable diet. The illegal (and legal) Hispanics of a decade ago drove vehicles which were falling apart on average, they lived in labor camps or packed 10 guys to a 2 bedroom shithole, they were commonly migratory single men who left wives and kids in Mexico, and they toiled 10-12 hour days at $5-6/hr. Then Oregon & Washington raised minimum wages to the highest in the nation, 9/11 happened and the spigot of illegals got pretty effectively turned off around here, and the labor pool shrank. Indeed, a couple of years ago there were plenty of headlines even down in regions of CA about orchard crops rotting on the trees because they didn't get picked on time. Plenty of that was discussed here on SI at the time. Wages around here are now significantly above minimum wage, I pay $10-12/Hr for field workers and almost 100% of applicants are now legal. As a result of these changes, the migrant single guy has mostly faded, and the labor camps (ours got a very nice facelift, and rents and conditions are now close to market conditions) have given way to families renting or even buying homes. The wives and kids are here as a result, hence the school problems. They now drive cars which just as nice as whites drive, and in a total shocker, the most resent income data shows that LOL, Hispanics just nudged whites in family income (around $30k/year)in this town (Note that richer white farmers and many other whites are outside the city limits, while most of the Hispanic workers live inside the city limits where property is cheaper, so yes there are some distortions in the data). The latter result being largely because they are almost all two income households, and the fact that the wives tend to be getting non-ag clerical jobs, and many of the men have started moving into more skilled jobs like construction, auto mechanics, etc. As they have risen, of course they put more pressure on the lower income whites as well (meth labs are booming, sometimes literally). Strange, but even with the shorter supply of labor, after they have been here a few years, most Hispanics try to get out of Ag work, because of the conditions I noted above, and despite the increased wages. The jobs still have low respect, and the working conditions are not very enjoyable. What a shock. let me guess... make them all 'legal'??? The discussion about "illegals" is stupid. The economic impact is about supply, not legal status. People like you who want cheap labor can only get that by keeping a plentiful supply. If the supply gets choked off (legal or otherwise) wages go up. Again, what a shock. This is why the Republican party is split over immigration. The business side wants a plentiful supply so labor stays cheap, but the redneck side who is getting clobbered by excess immigration (legal or otherwise!) wants it to stop. Again, what a shock!