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Pastimes : Let's Talk About Our Feelings!!! -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (13382)	10/23/1997 5:21:00 PM
From: George S. Montgomery	Read Replies (3) \| Respond to of 108807

Dear Alex: Nothing confrontational here, please. Your search is inspiring. Search less, find more. Nevertheless, isn't there a small conflict between your "comfy" and your "credo?" "I'm getting comfy with the decidedly Zen idea that looking obscures finding. My cautious credo (for now) is: It's never as simple as it looks. There is harm in overly simple ethics." How would you feel if the "credo" part read something like: "It's always more simple than it looks. There is harm in intellectualizing simplicity. Flaws and limitations thrive in intellectualizations, not in what is being intellectualized?" I believe there is an immense chasm between emotive, spiritual, sentient knowledge and rational, intellectual analysis of things we do not know. And I believe the former is closer to what is. I am not reentering the fray, only intrigued by your quest - as I am distressed by others'. gsm

To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (13382)	10/23/1997 8:23:00 PM
From: Mephisto	Respond to of 108807

Tao Te Ching,Chapter Two Beauty and mercy are only recognized by people Because they know the opposite, which is ugly and mean. If the people think they know goodness Then all they really know is what evil is like! Nothing, and Heaven ............share the same root - Difficulty and ease are a part of all work. The long and the short are in your hands, Above and below exist because they each do, What you want and what you say should be the same. Neither future nor past can exist alone. The sage has no attachment to anything and he therefore does what is right without speaking by simply being ..........in the Tao Chapter three Life, all life .......began without words. Life is made -- and no one owns it. The Tao is neither selfish nor proud. The Tao is generous and graceful in what it does Without ever claiming any merit. And the sage's greatness lies in taking no credit. [What do I believe? I don't yet know. To lean on a heavily-abused clich‚, I'm on a quest for the Tao or whatever; a seeker-after-truth] Good Luck!

To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (13382)	10/23/1997 9:45:00 PM
From: Skipper	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Alex, A is A is circular. Sure, but as you then point out, we can do no better, ultimately. You profess to not know what you believe, yet you have just written an essay on what you believe. You are a scientist, yet you imply that you have given up the idea that "the cosmos which surrounds and suffuses us may be understood and broken to our will by the assiduous practice of Logic constructed upon Empiricism". Isn't this the very truth that you use every day to feed yourself and your child? Keep pulling that loose thread and you will eventually have nothing but a mass of loose thread. I prefer to remain clothed. Skipper

To: Jacques Chitte who wrote (13382)	10/24/1997 9:16:00 AM
From: Father Terrence	Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 108807

Alex: "A is A", means that to understand the universe, you must first learn to recognize, understand, then adapt to reality. Not an easy process, it is the basis for the Scientific Method. Good science does not veer from the path of "A is A"; poor science allows mysticism to creep in (Deepak Chopra) or become tainted by politicizing (the science of ecology vs. environmentalism). The ache in your joints has a reason behind it. To discover that reason you must start with the realization that "A is A" -- the ache exists and therefore, there is a cause. Recognizing reality permits you to refine your observations and zero in on the reason(s) for the ache. "A is A" leads to greater knowledge. The mystic, however, will chant, dance, call on the gods to take away the spirits of pain; the politician will pass a law against pain; the rationalist (objectivists) will work to discover the real root of the pain, hypothesize and test against reality, and keep on until achieving a way to eliminate the pain (not psychologically, but in reality). Unlike the others, knowledge is gained from this process and can be applied and reapplied. Two hundred years later the mystic will still be dancing, while the rationalists will have discovered, then broken, the genetic code, address disease, halt and even reverse aging. Such is the power and promise of "A is A". A member of the Amazon basin tribes rolling in the dirt in ecstacy under the vision of an illusionary Jaguar God has little concept of reality. Under the influence of mind-bending drugs, the human brain has difficulty interpreting sensory data and what's real and imagined becomes intertwined. This is not the way to knowledge or advancement, but death and stagnation. The children of the Jaguar God will only reach for the starts in their fevered dreams. "A is A" is one of the few statements based on observation, not faith. It was the basis for the Renaissance, the Industrial Revolution, the Atomic Age, the Computer Age, and the space program. It was the means by which a few rose out of the muck and mire of the Dark Ages and dragged the rest of the world towards progress and enlightenment. Humanism is the mystics halfhearted, bastardized attempt to incorporate some of the wisdom of Aristotle into their hodge-podge of irrational ideas, dialogs and blank-outs. When one's continued motivation falls outside reason, is that not a definition of insanity? Why don't you tell all the great creators, those whose minds have made your everyday life that much more comfortable, that "looking obscures finding"? Thomas Edison would roar at laughter at that foolish statement. At least the man from Nazareth had it right when he sagely counseled, "Seek, and ye shall find". I have found that life CAN be as simple as it looks. If you stick to reality and what could rationally be real, rather than destroy the mind with the mish-mash of mysticism or wishful (non)thinking. Historically, the quest for achievment, real knowledge, understanding and accomplishment has been fought against a continual backdrop of political and mystical intrigue. There has been a continual battle for the individual human mind -- fought by the mystics, thugs, and a veritable handful of creators. When the mystics rule, humans are subjected to campaigns of terror and spiritual and physical enslavement. When the thugs rule, the person with the biggest gun wins, and labor camps are all in fashion. When the creators are set free (they rarely rule), the human race makes such advancement in such a seemingly impossible short span of time, that the so-called "common man" (the individuals who believe the lies and twisted truths of thugs and mystics) is left with their mouths hanging open in dumb shock. The "miracles" of the Mind are magic to them This is because they have erroneously accepted the belief that anything beyond their immediate understanding must be controlled by "a higher power". Father Terrence