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Pastimes : Don't Ask Rambi -- Ignore unavailable to you. Want to Upgrade?

To: koan who wrote (69792)	1/9/2009 11:35:41 AM
From: Rambi	1 Recommendation Read Replies (2) \| Respond to of 71178

:) we are just wrestling and rolling around all over the threads, aren't we? :) I went and read the national Rep platform on education and found nothing about teaching creationism in the schools. As Tim points out, that those advocating it are mostly Rep does not mean that most Rep advocate it. (I think that's one of those if A then B and B is C then A is C kind of errors) None of our conservative acquaintances would want it, but then they are educated and understand the difference between religion and science. Your opinion of religious schools is faulty. We used an Episcopalian school for the boys in Dallas that did no indoctrination (unless you count the morning chapel- which I loved since it gave them a sort of quiet intro to the day) and gave them an excellent academic foundation. Sadly much better than they had started out getting in the public schools in Dallas- which is why we changed. We wanted to use public, but frankly we were unwilling to sacrifice our children's education for a principle. As I read the Rep education platform as you suggested, I found I was in agreement with much of what they said! I am a strong believer in parental rights, which leaves me a bit on the fence with vouchers. We are asked to pay high taxes for public education, but that education fails us at times. Should parents be penalized because they want more or better or different, but only the rich can afford it? Republicans sneered at Obama for putting his girls in private school. Security aside, do you really think he would have put them in a public school in DC? He didn't in Chicago. Where's the equality in that? The rich can do what they want, while forcing the poor to do as they say without options? The only thing I disagreed with was the abstinence stand in sex ed- which is just silly. But I strongly strongly agreed with their opinion on the schools' role in areas outside academics- like providing clinics or abortion counseling. I am about information, not enabling. I am not religious, but find your dichotomy of "primitive dogma" and "being taught a wide range of wisdom, knowledge, poetry" just really strange, as if they were mutually exclusive. Plenty of religious people, as I seem to be reiterating a lot, are very very widely read and well-educated. They just happen to believe in God. I did too for many of my years. It didn't change my education, my personality, my knowledge of science or poetry. IN fact, I never knew science, and I still don't. Becoming an agnostic didn't suddenly bestow on me special scientific abilities, sadly. I think you will find Texas and many parts of the central US still strongly conservative, not just Appalachia, though they may hold out the longest. If the party can separate itself from the strong religious right influence, and become once again more about small govt and fiscal repsonsibility, it will regain many of its lost votes from this election. On the other hand, if Obama governs from the center and has some success, the Dems can hang in there for a long time.

To: koan who wrote (69792)	1/9/2009 12:14:33 PM
From: TimF	Read Replies (1) \| Respond to of 71178

72% of Republican's still support Bush; and Palin That does not imply that Republicans or conservatives, are anti-intellectual. The last bastion of Republicanism is appalachia and the deep south. After an extremely unpopular presidency, and with a candidate that many Republicans where not all that exited about, Republicans still kept Obama down to 52.9% of the vote. Just 4 years ago they won a majority. Politics goes back and fourth, the Republicans are down for now, but they are not marginialized nearly to the extent that your statement implies. socialism is an economic idea. Democracy is a political idea. and having more and more of the economy controlled by politics is a move towards socialism (or if the government doesn't actually own the parts of the economy it controls, than technically its a move towards economic fascism) And you call public schools socialist? Some things that resemble socialism in some way, and get called socialism by many libertarians or conservatives, are not technically socialism, in that the government doesn't own or directly control the means of production. Public schools are the real thing. The government owns and controls the system to produce the service of educating our young. That's socialism in the same way that government owned steel mills or car factories are socialism. That is pure democracy in action!!!! Not socialism! There is no conflict between the two ideas. Democracy and socialism are different things, but not exclusive. If you vote for the people who will control the means of production then you have democratic socialism. If its a dictator who controls them than you have authoritarian socialism (or if the control is extensive enough you can just call it totalitarianism). (Accurately) calling democratic socialism, "socialism", doesn't imply that its totalitarian, authoritarian, or not democratic. You could in theory even have a totalitarian democracy (people vote for a government that controls almost every aspect of your life). Democracy is a political system to determine what decisions are made, what laws are past, and systems put in place. Socialism is one of the possible systems that could be put in place by a democracy (or by a non-democratic government). Is the US socialist? Well no country is totally socialist or totally capitalist, and we are less socialist than many other countries, but we do have many socialist systems (such as public schools), and we have been moving more towards socialism (or more often technically towards economic fascism, but that term tends to get misunderstood, and we are to a lesser extent moving towards socialism as well).