To: J_F_Shepard who wrote (152530 ) 1/23/2009 4:47:34 PM From: one_less 1 Recommendation Read Replies (1) | Respond to of 173976 Two of the three make no claim to be scholars of that period in history and didn't make any such references. The third had quite a bit to say, and I have to admit it was an interesting overview but he exposed him self as a fraud repeatedly so it's hard to consider him as a serious scholar. Marshal Gauvin seems to have made a serious effort to question Christian historical claims. He makes a number of good points. The problem is, he argues much as you do, making spurious claims about the work other people have done while exposing himself as a spinner of falsehood in the process. For example:"If Jesus lived, he must have been born. When was he born? Matthew says he was born when Herod was King of Judea. Luke says he was born when Cyrenius was Governor of Syria. He could not have been born during the administration of these tow rulers for Herod died in the year 4 B.C., and Cyrenius, who, in Roman history is Quirinius, did not become Governor of Syria until ten years later. Herod and Quirinius are separated by the whole reign of Archelaus, Herod's son. Between Matthew and Luke, there is, therefore, a contradiction of at least ten years, as to the time of Christ's birth. The fact is that the early Christians had absolutely no knowledge as to when Christ was born. The Encyclopaedia Britannica says: "Christians count one hundred and thirty-three contrary opinions of different authorities concerning the year the Messiah appeared on earth." Think of it--one hundred and thirty-three different years, each one of which is held to be the year in which Christ came into the world. What magnificent certainty! " No thinking person would read that passage, following his logic, even if they believed he was presenting infallable details and conclude the sources reference determined with certainty, "0ne hundred and thirty-three contrary opinions about the year, adds up to 133 different years." Had he said the scholars disagree on the year, it could have been a partucular year, the previous year, or the following year but the historical record resulted in contradictions so that none of their claims can be authenticated, would have been reasonable. No intelligent person would conclude from that statement that they were claiming 133 different years with a certainty, yet your 'scholar' the expert did do that. He did what even the most novice on looker would not do? Why? Because he was not objective. We argued on when to celebrate the first year of the millenium, when we have done a year (2001) or when 1999 passes out and its the first moment of 2000. And it wasn't even history. Even in his concluding paragraph he discounts his whole presentation... There may have lived in Palestine, nineteen centuries ago, a man whose name was Jesus, who went about doing good, who was followed by admiring associates, and who in the end met a violent death. Yes. There may have been. Most people believe there was, even non-Christians. He may have been something other than what Gauvin has declared, or you think, or what I imagine etc. Perhaps that is why there are so many opinions and sects commenting on their particular perspectives. Jews say he was a prophet, Muslims say a messenger, Hindus say a God, Christians say savior and are diverse about their particular view points otherwise. The authoring of the Gospels can not be authenticated, so what. There were four main Jewish sects at this time, the Zealots, Pharisees, the Sadducees, and the Essenes. The reason the Roman army was occupying the area was at the request of the Pharisees who also promoted Josehus the historian. Herod was considered a Jew and called himself King of the Jews. How do you think that set with the label attributed to Jesus? John the Babtist was of the Essenes and preached to his followers to get away from the Roman ruler and Jewish conflict with them. Jesus is believed to be related to John. If you deny the divinity of Jesus but look at how his message might have clashed with the other sects much of it is still very believable. The four sects were very much in civil strife with each other. Zealots lopped off heads of people who didn't follow their way and the conduct of the Sadducees and Pharisees is critically targeted in the New Testiment words of Jesus, but not the Essenes. Guavin, your scholar, goes on and on about unprovable claims related to divinity, but doesn't deal much at all with what was known to be taking place on the ground at that time in history.