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To: Mary Cluney who wrote (5948)2/7/2009 9:49:37 AM
From: Peter Dierks  Respond to of 42652
 
These are iterative processes. They get better over time.

How many millions of people have to die in the learning process to make you happy?



To: Mary Cluney who wrote (5948)2/7/2009 4:47:38 PM
From: TimF1 Recommendation  Respond to of 42652
 
Cans have no will, no initiative, no ability to move or call on resources, no ability to perceive the world and respond to it. People aren't inanimate objects.

A market in a sense isn't just letting things happen at random, its people making their own decisions, in response to the information the market gives them.

Whether you have people make decisions in response to market incentives, or whether you have people make decisions about economic things politically, its still people making decisions, not at all like expecting a can to uncrush itself.

So the question is which process works better on economic decisions. The answer is generally responding to the market. There are all sorts of reasons, the most commonly stated one is probably the incentive problem (while work hard or take risks if you can't get ahead by doing so) but of equal or perhaps even greater importance is the knowledge problem, (sometimes called the information problem, or when you look at it from the perspective of a non-market system trying to obtain and transmit this information its the socialist calculation problem.)

In simple and imperfect terms - People have much better information about their own desires, and needs, and abilities, and resources, than government has, or realistically can have. Of course since a market requires dispersed decision making, you have to convey information that lets people work together to create wealth and meet peoples needs and desires, but the price system generally works rather well at this. No other idea has ever really worked, or even gives us any reason it could work under better circumstances.

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For more detail about knowledge related problems with economics, or in general about the difficulty of quantifying economic knowledge I recommend Hayek who's the source of many of the ideas related to this problem (or perhaps a summary or account of his ideas from someone else, if his writings are to heavy for your level of interest in them)

The Use of Knowledge in Society

...If we can agree that the economic problem of society is mainly one of rapid adaptation to changes in the particular circumstances of time and place, it would seem to follow that the ultimate decisions must be left to the people who are familiar with these circumstances, who know directly of the relevant changes and of the resources immediately available to meet them. We cannot expect that this problem will be solved by first communicating all this knowledge to a central board which, after integrating all knowledge, issues its orders. We must solve it by some form of decentralization. But this answers only part of our problem. We need decentralization because only thus can we insure that the knowledge of the particular circumstances of time and place will be promptly used. But the "man on the spot" cannot decide solely on the basis of his limited but intimate knowledge of the facts of his immediate surroundings. There still remains the problem of communicating to him such further information as he needs to fit his decisions into the whole pattern of changes of the larger economic system.

How much knowledge does he need to do so successfully ? Which of the events which happen beyond the horizon of his immediate knowledge are of relevance to his immediate decision, and how much of them need he know ?

There is hardly anything that happens anywhere in the world that might not have an effect on the decision he ought to make. But he need not know of these events as such, nor of all their effects. It does not matter for him why at the particular moment more screws of one size than of another are wanted, why paper bags are more readily available than canvas bags, or why skilled labor, or particular machine tools, have for the moment become more difficult to obtain. All that is significant for him is how much more or less difficult to procure they have become compared with other things with which he is also concerned, or how much more or less urgently wanted are the alternative things he produces or uses. It is always a question of the relative importance of the particular things with which he is concerned, and the causes which alter their relative importance are of no interest to him beyond the effect on those concrete things of his own environment.

It is in this connection that what I have called the "economic calculus" (or the Pure Logic of (Choice) helps us, at least by analogy, to see how this problem can be solved, and in fact is being solved, by the price system. Even the single controlling mind, in possession of all the data for some small, self-contained economic system, would not-- every time some small adjustment in the allocation of resources had to be made--go explicitly through all the relations between ends and means which might possibly be affected. It is indeed the great contribution of the Pure Logic of Choice that it has demonstrated conclusively that even such a single mind could solve this kind of problem only by constructing and constantly using rates of equivalence (or "values," or "marginal rates of substitution"), that is, by attaching to each kind of scarce resource a numerical index which cannot be derived from any property possessed by that particular thing, but which reflects, or in which is condensed, its significance in view of the whole means-end structure. In any small change he will have to consider only these quantitative indices (or "values") in which all the relevant information is concentrated; and, by adjusting the quantities one by one, he can appropriately rearrange his dispositions without having to solve the whole puzzle ab initio or without needing at any stage to survey it at once in all its ramifications.

Fundamentally, in a system in which the knowledge of the relevant facts is dispersed among many people, prices can act to co-ordinate the separate actions of different people in the same way as subjective values help the.individual to co-ordinate the parts of his plan. It is worth contemplating for a moment a very simple and commonplace instance of the action of the price system to see what precisely it accomplishes. Assume that somewhere in the world a new opportunity for the use of some raw material, say, tin, has arisen, or that one of the sources of supply of tin has been eliminated. It does not matter for our purpose--and it is significant that it does not matter--which of these two causes has made tin more scarce. All that the users of tin need to know is that some of the tin they used to consume is now more profitably employed elsewhere and that, in consequence, they must economize tin. There is no need for the great majority of them even to know where the more urgent need has arisen, or in favor of what other needs they ought to husband the supply. If only some of them know directly of the new demand, and switch resources over to it, and if the people who are aware of the new gap thus created in turn fill it from still other sources, the effect will rapidly spread throughout the whole economic system and influence not only all the uses of tin but also those of its substitutes and the substitutes of these substitutes, the supply of all the things made of tin, and their substitutes, and so on; and all his without the great majority of those instrumental in bringing about these substitutions knowing anything at all about the original cause of these changes. The whole acts as one market, not because any of its members survey the whole field, but because their limited individual fields of vision sufficiently overlap so that through many intermediaries the relevant information is communicated to all. The mere fact that there is one price for any commodity--or rather that local prices are connected in a manner determined by the cost of transport, etc.--brings about the solution which (it is just conceptually possible) might have been arrived at by one single mind possessing all the information which is in fact dispersed among all the people involved in the process...

virtualschool.edu

Also see
The Socialist Calculation Debate
cepa.newschool.edu

which examines the debate the debate about the issue, rather than just presenting the Austrian view